Talents vs Psionics

[Hanzorigami]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

In beginner's terms:

If you have GURPS PSIONICS, that's an obsolete supplement from a previous edition, and it will not match up with 4th Edition GURPS books.

Hi Jeff, I didn't say I had GURPS Psionics. I have the Basic Set and the Psionic Powers Books.

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

The 4th Edition Basic Set CHARACTERS book presents psionic abilities mostly as Advantages controlled by IQ rolls, and each level of Talent adds 1 to the IQ rolls for the associated abilities.

Agreed, I got that part right. Actually it is clear to me that this way to handle Psionic abilities requires to purchase the abilities (Advantages) individualy and the Talents are optional, giving a bonus on all the related abilities to that particular Talent if purchased. (Getting only Talents makes a pasive psi, and getting only abilities makes harder to control the raw abilities)

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

The 4th Edition supplement GURPS PSIONIC POWERS presents heavily modified Advantages that are controlled by IQ-based skills and come in levels that provide the amount of raw power, range, weight capacity, and other parameters. This is similar to the way things worked back in the previous edition.

Since I am not familiar with the previous edition, it doesn't mean much to me, however, in PSIONIC POWERS case, I am not sure how to handle the skills. Do I need to get the Power Talent, plus the ability, plus the skills?
Can I get only the skills or only the abilities?

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

If you are a first-time GM and want to include psionic abilities in an adventure for first time players...this may be biting off more than you can chew. I'd recommend starting with the free GURPS Lite pdf and one of the freebie adventures with pre-made characters you can get at e23.sjgames.com .

I know I am new to GURPS and RPGs in general, however my personal experience has showed me that when learning something new, it doesn't matter much if something is complex or not. Since everything is new to me, I can not really differentiate between something "complex" and something "not complex". :)

[Hai-Etlik]

OK, take a look at the Healing advantage on B59

[quote=B59]To activate your power, concentrate for one second and make an IQ roll.[quote]

If you buy this as an ability of a power like say "Psychic Healing" (B256) and buy levels of the associated talent, you can add the talent to your IQ when making that roll.

Now, if you are using the extra options in Psionic Powers, things get a bit more complex.

Lets say you have the Cure ability from the Psychic Healing power (PP47), this ability is built using the same Healing advantage as before. But since we are using the optional rule about skills, instead of rolling against IQ, you roll against the Cure skill, which defaults to IQ-6 but can be bought up from there. As before, you can add any levels of Psychic Healing talent you may have.

[Hanzorigami]

Thanks a lot Edges! Your answer is very clear and has solved most of my questions.

Originally Posted by Edges

There's many ways to handle psionics in GURPS. Since you have GURPS Basic and GURPS Psionic Powers, you might as well use what they put forth.

My advice:
Don't worry about what Basic says about Psionics. Use it for all the other stuff.
Use GURPS Psionic Powers for Psionics. Don't get caught up in the "statistics" section of the abilities. Just go with the descriptive text.

This is a very good advice actually. I bought the Psionic Powers supplement precisely with the intention of using it for the psionic powers (even if it sounds obvious). I'll just bypass the information in the Psionics Chapter of the basic set book.

Originally Posted by Edges

On GURPS Psionic Powers:
Every psionic ability lists a skill that you need to use the ability (unless you want to roll on defaults in a our-characters-don't-know-how-to-use-their-powers campaign). The player buys that skill for the character just like any other skill. The skill needed is listed with the ability (i.e. the Interruption ability on pg. 23 uses the Cancellation skill). Note, some psionic skills can be used for more than one psionic ability (the Cancellation skill can be used for 3 abilities as you can see).

That makes sense, If I get the ability but no skills, I can only use it by either getting the skill associated or the defaults, but just one thing. What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Take the Cancellation skill for example. It can be used for 3 abilities, but what happens if I do not get any of them? I can not use the skill at all if I do not have any abilities associated to it?

Originally Posted by Edges

After you've bought up all your abilities and the skills to use those abilities, pick out any Psionic Talents you might like. Psionic Talents add to all the Psionic skills in a power. For example, if you have Anti-Psi Talent level 2, you get +2 to the cancellation skill and +2 to the Psionic Shield skill and +2 to the Screaming skill. But this Talent doesn't add to the Cure skill on pg. 46, for example. You need the Psychic Healing Talent for that.

I got that part right. :)

Originally Posted by Edges

Don't be confused by the mundane (i.e. not psionic) Talents in Basic. The Healer Talent in Basic, for example, does not add to Psychic Healing skills. A good psi healer might have some levels in Psychic Healing Talent for her Psychic Healing abilities and some levels in (ordinary) Healing Talent for skills like First-Aid and Physician.

I understand the difference now thanks to the previous information. :)

Originally Posted by Edges

One final point. Talents (whether mundane or psionic) don't come with their skills. They only give bonuses to the skills. You still have to get the skills separately. Talents are a good way to be good at a bunch of skills without paying a whole lot of points. If you have a bunch of skills in a Talent, you can actually save points by getting a few levels of the Talent rather than buy a whole bunch of levels in each skill.

I hope that helps.

Got it! Thank you very much! This has been really helpful!

[Hanzorigami]

Thanks for your answer Anaraxes. I was considering getting the Powers supplement, but knowing that Psionic Powers is an application of Powers, has made me change my mind. I may not need it unless I want to create my own powers.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You're missing one link: the book "Powers". Powers has expanded rules, Advantages, Limitations, and Enhancements for building abilities. "Psionic Powers" is a big worked example of how you can build abilities (powers) around a certain theme. The Basic Set has the same concepts, but Powers takes it further, with additional rules, examples, and possibilities. Psionic Powers does the work of choosing among all those options for you for psi.

A Talent is a kind of advantage that gives a bonus to a set of skill rolls. One of the basic assumptions in Psionic Powers is that psi powers should have associated skills. (Some abilities in some game worlds might not need skill rolls, so that's not a given.) So the psi abilities are built on a base Advantage, but also consistently have a Limitation added that requires a skill roll. Power talents add to the effective skill of those psi skills in the same way that, say, Smooth Operator talent adds to many social / "face" skills. The Talent doesn't do anything on its own.

[Hanzorigami]

Originally Posted by Diomedes

I think most of what's necessary in Powers is recapitulated in Psionic Powers; SJGames' general philosophy is that supplements shouldn't require anything beyond the core books.

No, you buy the skill separately. You don't have to buy it, you can use them at default, but it's hard to be good at using such an ability without it.


You don't have to buy any of the associated skills; the Talent bonus also improves your skill defaults.

Thanks for your comments Diomedes. I think I got it thanks to all the answers I've got, just one question remains: What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Is it possible? if so, how does it work? I've read that the skills are affected by the level of the ability (like: In level 1 you need to be touching the subject, in level 2 you need to be looking at the subject, in level 3 you can just imagine the subjet, etc.), so is it a requirement to have the abilities?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

Thanks for your comments Diomedes. I think I got it thanks to all the answers I've got, just one question remains: What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Is it possible? if so, how does it work? I've read that the skills are affected by the level of the ability (like: In level 1 you need to be touching the subject, in level 2 you need to be looking at the subject, in level 3 you can just imagine the subjet, etc.), so is it a requirement to have the abilities?

You can purchase the skill without the ability. However, without the ability you will never be able to use the skill. Having a skill in Mind-Reading doesn't give you the ability to read minds; it merely gives you skill in using a power that allows you to read minds.

Skill is for tricks, Power is for ability. You can use the Power without the Skill. You can't use the Skill without the Power. You can still learn the skill though, so long as you don't mind throwing away the points invested in it.

[Hanzorigami]

Mmm... That's interesting... Thanks for sharing Sunrunners

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

You can purchase the skill without the ability. However, without the ability you will never be able to use the skill. Having a skill in Mind-Reading doesn't give you the ability to read minds; it merely gives you skill in using a power that allows you to read minds.

Skill is for tricks, Power is for ability. You can use the Power without the Skill. You can't use the Skill without the Power. You can still learn the skill though, so long as you don't mind throwing away the points invested in it.

I assume we are talking about the Pionic Powers supplement, so I guess when you say "You can use the Power without the skill" you are talking about Psionic Traits (abilities that have no associated skills like Psi Static, or Possession), but what about Psionic powers? They all have a skill associated or a default (which in order to apply you need to have the skill anyway! I guess the default objective is just to save some points by not getting the ability). So if I understand correctly, in order to use any Psionic Power you need to get the ability (a requirement) and at least one skill that allows you to use that ability. If this skill can be used in another ability as a default, you do not need to get that ability too, but in either case in order to effectively use the ability, you need a success roll against the skill (or default with its corresponding penalty for not getting the ability), otherwise you can not use the skill.
That means that there is no way to use a psionic power by getting only the ability since in order to use it a success roll is needed, however Psionic Traits can be used just like a regular Advantage since they have no skills associated.
Puff!!! Can someone tell me if all the stuff I have just mentioned above is correct? :)

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

I assume we are talking about the Pionic Powers supplement,

Correct. I had read that you were using that book, and so tailored my answer accordingly.

so I guess when you say "You can use the Power without the skill" you are talking about Psionic Traits (abilities that have no associated skills like Psi Static, or Possession), but what about Psionic powers? They all have a skill associated or a default (which in order to apply you need to have the skill anyway! I guess the default objective is just to save some points by not getting the ability).

You pay for the Power with character points. You can use said Power without investing any points (at all) (for any Power that doesn't have a limitation saying Requires 'Skill Name' Roll; which absolutely none of the Powers in GURPS Psionic Powers has) in the associated Skill. You can invest character points in learning the associated Skill for the Power, in order to roll something other than Attribute; but it is not required to do so in order to use the Power.

So if I understand correctly, in order to use any Psionic Power you need to get the ability (a requirement)

Correct.

and at least one skill that allows you to use that ability.

Incorrect. The Skill is not required. It is optional. It is suggested. But in no way required. Without the Skill trained, you roll the appropriate Attribute (usually IQ or Will) instead.

If this skill can be used in another ability as a default, you do not need to get that ability too,

Kinda. If you want to use that other Power, you must purchase that Power to use it even if it shares a Skill with another Power. Skills are for techniques, Power is for ability to do something.

but in either case in order to effectively use the ability, you need a success roll against the skill (or default with its corresponding penalty for not getting the ability),

In order to use a Power, you need to successfully roll against the appropriate Attribute (if the Skill is not trained) or the appropriate Skill (if the Skill is trained).

otherwise you can not use the skill.

Correct. You need the Power to be able to use the Skill, as the Skill does nothing by itself.

That means that there is no way to use a psionic power by getting only the ability since in order to use it a success roll is needed,

Incorrect, as per above.

however Psionic Traits can be used just like a regular Advantage since they have no skills associated.

Any Power can be used just like a regular Advantage, with or without an associated Skill. If you don't have the Skill, you merely check against the appropriate Attribute instead.

Some Powers (those without an associated Skill) do not require an Attribute check nor a Skill check in order to function. They just work.

Puff!!! Can someone tell me if all the stuff I have just mentioned above is correct? :)

The way to think about it is: Power (required to benefit from) + Optional Skill (in order to use the Psionic Power Techniques as listed and described under the Power description). If you don't have any points in the associated Skill, you use the appropriate Attribute instead.

[Keeh]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Incorrect. The Skill is not required. It is optional. It is suggested. But in no way required. Without the Skill trained, you roll the appropriate Attribute (usually IQ or Will) instead.

While the skill is not required, without it, you'll be rolling at its default, which is Attribute-6, not Attribute (Psionic Powers p.6, or "Skill for Everyone" in Powers p 162).

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Keeh

While the skill is not required, without it, you'll be rolling at its default, which is Attribute-6, not Attribute (Psionic Powers p.6, or "Skill for Everyone" in Powers p 162).

Good catch. I should have stated that rather than assumed. :)