Talents vs Psionics

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

Thanks for your response, Ryan.

Unfortunately I do not have the Powers book, so I am not familiar with the original rules... :(

I think most of what's necessary in Powers is recapitulated in Psionic Powers; SJGames' general philosophy is that supplements shouldn't require anything beyond the core books.

This is precisely part of my problem. I do not quite understand how the skills are associated to the Psionic Abilities. If I get a psionic ability do I automatically get access to all the skills associated to it? Does it work just the same with Talents?

No, you buy the skill separately. You don't have to buy it, you can use them at default, but it's hard to be good at using such an ability without it.

So, if I get a skill talent is it useless unless I also buy at least one of the skills associated to it? I mean, suppose I get Animal Friend 2. If I do not get any of the associated skills, what is Animal Friend 2 good for?
About power talents, I understand that the Power Talent (ESP Talent, PK Talent, etc.) applies a bonus to all the rolls related to that specific Power abilities, but such abilities are Advantages (Basic Set), not skills.

You don't have to buy any of the associated skills; the Talent bonus also improves your skill defaults.

[Hanzorigami]

Originally Posted by Diomedes

I think most of what's necessary in Powers is recapitulated in Psionic Powers; SJGames' general philosophy is that supplements shouldn't require anything beyond the core books.

No, you buy the skill separately. You don't have to buy it, you can use them at default, but it's hard to be good at using such an ability without it.


You don't have to buy any of the associated skills; the Talent bonus also improves your skill defaults.

Thanks for your comments Diomedes. I think I got it thanks to all the answers I've got, just one question remains: What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Is it possible? if so, how does it work? I've read that the skills are affected by the level of the ability (like: In level 1 you need to be touching the subject, in level 2 you need to be looking at the subject, in level 3 you can just imagine the subjet, etc.), so is it a requirement to have the abilities?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

Thanks for your comments Diomedes. I think I got it thanks to all the answers I've got, just one question remains: What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Is it possible? if so, how does it work? I've read that the skills are affected by the level of the ability (like: In level 1 you need to be touching the subject, in level 2 you need to be looking at the subject, in level 3 you can just imagine the subjet, etc.), so is it a requirement to have the abilities?

You can purchase the skill without the ability. However, without the ability you will never be able to use the skill. Having a skill in Mind-Reading doesn't give you the ability to read minds; it merely gives you skill in using a power that allows you to read minds.

Skill is for tricks, Power is for ability. You can use the Power without the Skill. You can't use the Skill without the Power. You can still learn the skill though, so long as you don't mind throwing away the points invested in it.

[Hanzorigami]

Mmm... That's interesting... Thanks for sharing Sunrunners

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

You can purchase the skill without the ability. However, without the ability you will never be able to use the skill. Having a skill in Mind-Reading doesn't give you the ability to read minds; it merely gives you skill in using a power that allows you to read minds.

Skill is for tricks, Power is for ability. You can use the Power without the Skill. You can't use the Skill without the Power. You can still learn the skill though, so long as you don't mind throwing away the points invested in it.

I assume we are talking about the Pionic Powers supplement, so I guess when you say "You can use the Power without the skill" you are talking about Psionic Traits (abilities that have no associated skills like Psi Static, or Possession), but what about Psionic powers? They all have a skill associated or a default (which in order to apply you need to have the skill anyway! I guess the default objective is just to save some points by not getting the ability). So if I understand correctly, in order to use any Psionic Power you need to get the ability (a requirement) and at least one skill that allows you to use that ability. If this skill can be used in another ability as a default, you do not need to get that ability too, but in either case in order to effectively use the ability, you need a success roll against the skill (or default with its corresponding penalty for not getting the ability), otherwise you can not use the skill.
That means that there is no way to use a psionic power by getting only the ability since in order to use it a success roll is needed, however Psionic Traits can be used just like a regular Advantage since they have no skills associated.
Puff!!! Can someone tell me if all the stuff I have just mentioned above is correct? :)

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

I assume we are talking about the Pionic Powers supplement,

Correct. I had read that you were using that book, and so tailored my answer accordingly.

so I guess when you say "You can use the Power without the skill" you are talking about Psionic Traits (abilities that have no associated skills like Psi Static, or Possession), but what about Psionic powers? They all have a skill associated or a default (which in order to apply you need to have the skill anyway! I guess the default objective is just to save some points by not getting the ability).

You pay for the Power with character points. You can use said Power without investing any points (at all) (for any Power that doesn't have a limitation saying Requires 'Skill Name' Roll; which absolutely none of the Powers in GURPS Psionic Powers has) in the associated Skill. You can invest character points in learning the associated Skill for the Power, in order to roll something other than Attribute; but it is not required to do so in order to use the Power.

So if I understand correctly, in order to use any Psionic Power you need to get the ability (a requirement)

Correct.

and at least one skill that allows you to use that ability.

Incorrect. The Skill is not required. It is optional. It is suggested. But in no way required. Without the Skill trained, you roll the appropriate Attribute (usually IQ or Will) instead.

If this skill can be used in another ability as a default, you do not need to get that ability too,

Kinda. If you want to use that other Power, you must purchase that Power to use it even if it shares a Skill with another Power. Skills are for techniques, Power is for ability to do something.

but in either case in order to effectively use the ability, you need a success roll against the skill (or default with its corresponding penalty for not getting the ability),

In order to use a Power, you need to successfully roll against the appropriate Attribute (if the Skill is not trained) or the appropriate Skill (if the Skill is trained).

otherwise you can not use the skill.

Correct. You need the Power to be able to use the Skill, as the Skill does nothing by itself.

That means that there is no way to use a psionic power by getting only the ability since in order to use it a success roll is needed,

Incorrect, as per above.

however Psionic Traits can be used just like a regular Advantage since they have no skills associated.

Any Power can be used just like a regular Advantage, with or without an associated Skill. If you don't have the Skill, you merely check against the appropriate Attribute instead.

Some Powers (those without an associated Skill) do not require an Attribute check nor a Skill check in order to function. They just work.

Puff!!! Can someone tell me if all the stuff I have just mentioned above is correct? :)

The way to think about it is: Power (required to benefit from) + Optional Skill (in order to use the Psionic Power Techniques as listed and described under the Power description). If you don't have any points in the associated Skill, you use the appropriate Attribute instead.

[Keeh]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Incorrect. The Skill is not required. It is optional. It is suggested. But in no way required. Without the Skill trained, you roll the appropriate Attribute (usually IQ or Will) instead.

While the skill is not required, without it, you'll be rolling at its default, which is Attribute-6, not Attribute (Psionic Powers p.6, or "Skill for Everyone" in Powers p 162).

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Keeh

While the skill is not required, without it, you'll be rolling at its default, which is Attribute-6, not Attribute (Psionic Powers p.6, or "Skill for Everyone" in Powers p 162).

Good catch. I should have stated that rather than assumed. :)

[Hanzorigami]

Definitively valuable information Sunrunners and Keeh! Thanks a lot!
I think I understand better now how the stuff in the Psionic Powers supplement works. :) I am glad to see some of my conjectures were right. I'd like to use an example to confirm I got everything right.

I'd like to have True Sight, which is an AntiPsi ability (PP25).
Its cost is 16 points for level 1 and 21 for level 2.
The skill associated is True Sight (Will/Hard).

I need to buy the True Sight ability (requirement) at any of the levels, let's say level 1 for 16 points.

Now, with just that, I could use True Sight as an Advantage and make a success roll against my WILL-6 (I assume the associated Attribute is WILL since the associated skill's Attribute is WILL), and if I succeed, I can use it.

If I'd like to have a bonus, I could either buy some levels of the AntiPsi Talent (5 points/level) to have a bonus or buy the True Sight skill at WILL+x (in order to have an advantage, but I know I could as well buy it at WILL+0 or even WILL-x) paying the cost as a standard Hard skill. I could as well acquire both, the AntiPsi Talent level(s) and Skill at Attribute+x for a better bonus.

Now, I assume that by buying the True Sight ability I could also use Shared Sight (Is this correct?). My thought is that since Shared Sight has no skill associated (just a default) and no cost it is an ability that requires (depends on) having True Sight in order to be used, and that its "cost" is the cost paid to get the True Sight ability.
In this case, how should I proceed if I want to use Shared Sight?
The default is True Sight-5; cannot exceed True Sight.
I know the first True Sight mentioned is the True Sight skill level with a penalization of -5, but what does it mean "cannot exceed True Sight"?
Somehow I think this second True Sight is not the skill, but the actual ability, but yet I do not quite understand how could True Sight-5 exceed True Sight.

I understand that if I have the True Sight ability and the True Sight skill, I could use Shared Sight with a success roll at True Sight-5 (I would yet have to figure out if I am not exceeding True Sight, which so far I do not quite understand), but what if I do not have the True Sight skill? Could I use Shared Sight with a success roll at WILL-6 just like with the True Sight ability?

[Keeh]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

In this case, how should I proceed if I want to use Shared Sight?
The default is True Sight-5; cannot exceed True Sight.
I know the first True Sight mentioned is the True Sight skill level with a penalization of -5, but what does it mean "cannot exceed True Sight"?
Somehow I think this second True Sight is not the skill, but the actual ability, but yet I do not quite understand how could True Sight-5 exceed True Sight.

To use Shared Sight, you roll against the Shared Sight technique, which start at True Sight-5, but you can improve that until it's at True Sight (see Techniques in Character p. 229). Usually, you'd also pay 2 FP somewhere in the process (see Psionic Powers p.8)

You can also use the True Sight to do all the things described under Getting Tricky (Psionic Powers p.7).

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

My thought is that since Shared Sight has no skill associated (just a default) and no cost it is an ability that requires (depends on) having True Sight in order to be used, and that its "cost" is the cost paid to get the True Sight ability.

In this case, how should I proceed if I want to use Shared Sight?
The default is True Sight-5; cannot exceed True Sight.
I know the first True Sight mentioned is the True Sight skill level with a penalization of -5, but what does it mean "cannot exceed True Sight"?
Somehow I think this second True Sight is not the skill, but the actual ability, but yet I do not quite understand how could True Sight-5 exceed True Sight.

Shared Sight is a Technique (B229) that lets you do something special with True Sight. To use it you roll against True Sight Skill -5. If you want to be able to do it more easily you put points into the Shared Sight Technique but cannot raise it above your level of True Sight Skill.

For example you have True Sight (the skill) at 15 and no points in Shared Sight (technique). To use Shared Sight you would roll against True Sight (skill) minus five, so that technique has an effective skill of 10.

If you put points into the technique the penalty would drop. Two points in the technique would make the penalty -4, three would make it -3, four would make it -2 and so on.