Talents vs Psionics

[Hanzorigami]

Thanks for your response, Ryan.

Originally Posted by RyanW

The skills associated with psionics in Psionic Powers are an added detail (using rules originally introduced in Powers).

Unfortunately I do not have the Powers book, so I am not familiar with the original rules... :(

Originally Posted by RyanW

Most of the powers would originally require a roll on IQ (or occasionally Will or Per) to use. Using the rules in Psionic Powers you roll against the associated skill for all purposes. The fact that the skill starts out lower is balanced with the fact that you can raise it cheaper than the underlying stat.

This is precisely part of my problem. I do not quite understand how the skills are associated to the Psionic Abilities. If I get a psionic ability do I automatically get access to all the skills associated to it? Does it work just the same with Talents?

Originally Posted by RyanW

There are two types of Talents that function similarly, but not identically: skill talents and power talents.

Skill talents (like Healer) give a bonus to the associated skills (and a few other benefits), but you otherwise have to purchase the skills normally.

Power talents boost the rolls associated with using a power that falls under the appropriate talent. For example, if you have Psi Sense as part of the ESP power, you would get +1 per level of ESP Talent to attribute or skill rolls to use it.

So, if I get a skill talent is it useless unless I also buy at least one of the skills associated to it? I mean, suppose I get Animal Friend 2. If I do not get any of the associated skills, what is Animal Friend 2 good for?
About power talents, I understand that the Power Talent (ESP Talent, PK Talent, etc.) applies a bonus to all the rolls related to that specific Power abilities, but such abilities are Advantages (Basic Set), not skills.

[Hanzorigami]

Seems like while I was replying I got more answers! :) Thanks to all for your responses, I'll read them and reply accordingly.

[Hai-Etlik]

OK, take a look at the Healing advantage on B59

[quote=B59]To activate your power, concentrate for one second and make an IQ roll.[quote]

If you buy this as an ability of a power like say "Psychic Healing" (B256) and buy levels of the associated talent, you can add the talent to your IQ when making that roll.

Now, if you are using the extra options in Psionic Powers, things get a bit more complex.

Lets say you have the Cure ability from the Psychic Healing power (PP47), this ability is built using the same Healing advantage as before. But since we are using the optional rule about skills, instead of rolling against IQ, you roll against the Cure skill, which defaults to IQ-6 but can be bought up from there. As before, you can add any levels of Psychic Healing talent you may have.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

So, if I get a skill talent is it useless unless I also buy at least one of the skills associated to it? I mean, suppose I get Animal Friend 2. If I do not get any of the associated skills, what is Animal Friend 2 good for?

Each level of a talent is good for 10% off of the hours of study required to learn the associated skills. Animal Friend 2 will let gain a point in Animal Handling skill with 160 hours of supervised study instead of 200.

IIRC, you can get the +2 bonus to some other relevant rolls as well, like an IQ roll to recognize a particular animal is the same one you encountered long ago.

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

Thanks for your response, Ryan.

Unfortunately I do not have the Powers book, so I am not familiar with the original rules... :(

I think most of what's necessary in Powers is recapitulated in Psionic Powers; SJGames' general philosophy is that supplements shouldn't require anything beyond the core books.

This is precisely part of my problem. I do not quite understand how the skills are associated to the Psionic Abilities. If I get a psionic ability do I automatically get access to all the skills associated to it? Does it work just the same with Talents?

No, you buy the skill separately. You don't have to buy it, you can use them at default, but it's hard to be good at using such an ability without it.

So, if I get a skill talent is it useless unless I also buy at least one of the skills associated to it? I mean, suppose I get Animal Friend 2. If I do not get any of the associated skills, what is Animal Friend 2 good for?
About power talents, I understand that the Power Talent (ESP Talent, PK Talent, etc.) applies a bonus to all the rolls related to that specific Power abilities, but such abilities are Advantages (Basic Set), not skills.

You don't have to buy any of the associated skills; the Talent bonus also improves your skill defaults.

[Hanzorigami]

Originally Posted by Diomedes

I think most of what's necessary in Powers is recapitulated in Psionic Powers; SJGames' general philosophy is that supplements shouldn't require anything beyond the core books.

No, you buy the skill separately. You don't have to buy it, you can use them at default, but it's hard to be good at using such an ability without it.


You don't have to buy any of the associated skills; the Talent bonus also improves your skill defaults.

Thanks for your comments Diomedes. I think I got it thanks to all the answers I've got, just one question remains: What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Is it possible? if so, how does it work? I've read that the skills are affected by the level of the ability (like: In level 1 you need to be touching the subject, in level 2 you need to be looking at the subject, in level 3 you can just imagine the subjet, etc.), so is it a requirement to have the abilities?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

Thanks for your comments Diomedes. I think I got it thanks to all the answers I've got, just one question remains: What happens if I get the skill but not the ability? Is it possible? if so, how does it work? I've read that the skills are affected by the level of the ability (like: In level 1 you need to be touching the subject, in level 2 you need to be looking at the subject, in level 3 you can just imagine the subjet, etc.), so is it a requirement to have the abilities?

You can purchase the skill without the ability. However, without the ability you will never be able to use the skill. Having a skill in Mind-Reading doesn't give you the ability to read minds; it merely gives you skill in using a power that allows you to read minds.

Skill is for tricks, Power is for ability. You can use the Power without the Skill. You can't use the Skill without the Power. You can still learn the skill though, so long as you don't mind throwing away the points invested in it.

[Hanzorigami]

Mmm... That's interesting... Thanks for sharing Sunrunners

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

You can purchase the skill without the ability. However, without the ability you will never be able to use the skill. Having a skill in Mind-Reading doesn't give you the ability to read minds; it merely gives you skill in using a power that allows you to read minds.

Skill is for tricks, Power is for ability. You can use the Power without the Skill. You can't use the Skill without the Power. You can still learn the skill though, so long as you don't mind throwing away the points invested in it.

I assume we are talking about the Pionic Powers supplement, so I guess when you say "You can use the Power without the skill" you are talking about Psionic Traits (abilities that have no associated skills like Psi Static, or Possession), but what about Psionic powers? They all have a skill associated or a default (which in order to apply you need to have the skill anyway! I guess the default objective is just to save some points by not getting the ability). So if I understand correctly, in order to use any Psionic Power you need to get the ability (a requirement) and at least one skill that allows you to use that ability. If this skill can be used in another ability as a default, you do not need to get that ability too, but in either case in order to effectively use the ability, you need a success roll against the skill (or default with its corresponding penalty for not getting the ability), otherwise you can not use the skill.
That means that there is no way to use a psionic power by getting only the ability since in order to use it a success roll is needed, however Psionic Traits can be used just like a regular Advantage since they have no skills associated.
Puff!!! Can someone tell me if all the stuff I have just mentioned above is correct? :)

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Hanzorigami

I assume we are talking about the Pionic Powers supplement,

Correct. I had read that you were using that book, and so tailored my answer accordingly.

so I guess when you say "You can use the Power without the skill" you are talking about Psionic Traits (abilities that have no associated skills like Psi Static, or Possession), but what about Psionic powers? They all have a skill associated or a default (which in order to apply you need to have the skill anyway! I guess the default objective is just to save some points by not getting the ability).

You pay for the Power with character points. You can use said Power without investing any points (at all) (for any Power that doesn't have a limitation saying Requires 'Skill Name' Roll; which absolutely none of the Powers in GURPS Psionic Powers has) in the associated Skill. You can invest character points in learning the associated Skill for the Power, in order to roll something other than Attribute; but it is not required to do so in order to use the Power.

So if I understand correctly, in order to use any Psionic Power you need to get the ability (a requirement)

Correct.

and at least one skill that allows you to use that ability.

Incorrect. The Skill is not required. It is optional. It is suggested. But in no way required. Without the Skill trained, you roll the appropriate Attribute (usually IQ or Will) instead.

If this skill can be used in another ability as a default, you do not need to get that ability too,

Kinda. If you want to use that other Power, you must purchase that Power to use it even if it shares a Skill with another Power. Skills are for techniques, Power is for ability to do something.

but in either case in order to effectively use the ability, you need a success roll against the skill (or default with its corresponding penalty for not getting the ability),

In order to use a Power, you need to successfully roll against the appropriate Attribute (if the Skill is not trained) or the appropriate Skill (if the Skill is trained).

otherwise you can not use the skill.

Correct. You need the Power to be able to use the Skill, as the Skill does nothing by itself.

That means that there is no way to use a psionic power by getting only the ability since in order to use it a success roll is needed,

Incorrect, as per above.

however Psionic Traits can be used just like a regular Advantage since they have no skills associated.

Any Power can be used just like a regular Advantage, with or without an associated Skill. If you don't have the Skill, you merely check against the appropriate Attribute instead.

Some Powers (those without an associated Skill) do not require an Attribute check nor a Skill check in order to function. They just work.

Puff!!! Can someone tell me if all the stuff I have just mentioned above is correct? :)

The way to think about it is: Power (required to benefit from) + Optional Skill (in order to use the Psionic Power Techniques as listed and described under the Power description). If you don't have any points in the associated Skill, you use the appropriate Attribute instead.

[Keeh]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Incorrect. The Skill is not required. It is optional. It is suggested. But in no way required. Without the Skill trained, you roll the appropriate Attribute (usually IQ or Will) instead.

While the skill is not required, without it, you'll be rolling at its default, which is Attribute-6, not Attribute (Psionic Powers p.6, or "Skill for Everyone" in Powers p 162).