Roman revivalists... in [Space]

[Agemegos]

Suppose it's about AD 2164. The Earth a bit overpopulated and slightly run-down, and setting up utopias in orbital habitats and Moon colonies has run into snags (they are hard places for any high degree of individual liberty). Terraforming Mars &c. is going to take centuries at least. There's a lot of conflict about: high-tech weapons, even high-tech improvised weapons, in a crowded world with worldwide news and communications make for a lot of scary stories in the news. And defence and security precautions have become irksome, even oppressive.

Suppose further that about 70 years ago a bunch of space enthusiasts used a one-way 'just-as-fast-as-light' gadget to found a colony at Tau Ceti. Since then there has been a small but steady exodus, and a total of 23 colonies have been established by a range of different enterprises from the government of China to the New Vinland Company by way of a splinter group of the international Scouting Movement. As yet the total emigration rate has been small: 10,000 people per year, or one in 1.5 million of the world's population. But recently (AD 2159) news arrived from the Tau Ceti colony that in 2147 its population had reached 100,000, and it had founded a university. Emigrating suddenly seems like not such as completely mad idea as all that.

Prolepsis: the two paragraphs preceding are background, not themselves what I want to discuss. Okay?

A bunch of admirers of the ancient Roman Republic decide to found a political utopia, and buy the colonisation rights to a habitable planet orbiting CD -37°10500 A.

Now, these people may be crackpots, but they aren't stupid. They are admirers of some Roman institutions, particularly the cursus honorum and the non-incumbency principle. But they are aware that the republican constitution had defects which led to the fall of the republic. Also, no-one is going there involuntarily, so the plebs are going to insist on constitutional protections. So naturally they believe that they have worked out what went wrong with Rome, and have adopted a mended version of the constitution of the Roman Republic. These enthusiasts are by no means all scholars, but they include some scholars, and are inspired by the work of scholars.

Question: What version of the Roman constitution are these enthusiasts likely to take as their starting-point? That is, what was the pinnacle of Roman constitutional development from a modern point of view?

Question: What are the main defects in that constitution, and how are our friends going to repair them?


Naturally, the project isn't going to work, and there will be tears before bedtime. But the plan has to be plausible enough to attract an average of 200 self-funding volunteers per year at least until the news gets back of how it has gone wrong.


Please, please, I beg. Do not de-rail this thread into a discussion of the American republic. Please?

[Agemegos]

System stats

Primary star
Name of star:  CD -37°10500
system number: 25             companion stars: 1
class of star: G6 V            1. mass: 1.60         periapsis:      8.4 AU
mass:          0.9    M_         class: white dwarf    apapsis:     19.6 AU
luminosity:    0.80   L_                          
age:           9      Gya.                          
diameter:      0.0092 AU     

Planets & moons
ID#     orbit radius    world type                  size  mass   grav. atmosphere              hydrograph.  temp. climate   solar day Hab. RVM  Affinity
        (AU)(10,000 km)                             (D♁)  (M♁)   (g.)                                       (C)             (hours)
I         0.15          small rock planet            0.85   0.44  0.60 none                                  370  infernal  infinite    0    0    0
II        0.30          standard greenhouse planet   1.3    1.9   1.1  superdense corrosive    20% water     756  infernal  infinite   -2    0   -2
III       0.52          standard greenhouse planet   0.64   0.26  0.64 superdense corrosive                  629  infernal  infinite   -2    0   -2
IV        0.72          standard garden planet       1.0    0.93  0.91 standard marginal       70% water       51 very hot     26.6     5   -1    4
V         1.2           standard garden planet       0.73   0.34  0.65 thin marginal           100% water     -28 very cold     7.72    1    0    1
          2.0           asteroid belt                                                                         -91 frozen                0   -1   -1
VI        6.1           medium gas giant            10    200     2.0  superdense corrosive                                    58.6               
                        7 moonlets                                                                           -170 frozen                0    0    0
VIa                38   tiny sulfur moon             0.07   0.00  0.03 none                                  -191 frozen       46.4    -1    0   -1
VIb                45   standard ice moon            0.54   0.17  0.59 standard mildly toxic                 -154 frozen       58.6    -1    0   -1
VIc                54   small ice moon               0.38   0.03  0.19 very dense mildly toxic 50% h'carb.   -163 frozen       78.7    -1    0   -1
VId                64   small ice moon               0.51   0.04  0.15 very dense mildly toxic 30% h'carb.   -162 frozen       99.5    -1    0   -1
                        6 moonlets                                                                           -170 frozen                0    0    0

Planet stats

System number:    25     "CD -37°10500"
Planet:           IV     "New Rome"
Planetology
class of star:    G6 V
mean distance:    0.72    AU
  perihelion:     0.72    AU
  aphelion:       0.73    AU
axial tilt:       25°
annual period:    0.649   years
                  213.7   local days
local day:        26 h. 38'
                          
standard garden planet
diameter:         1.0     x Earth's
                  12,889  km
density:          0.9     x Earth's
                  5.0     g/cm^3
surface gravity:  0.91    g.
                  8.9     m/s^2
escape velocity:  10.7    km/s
vulcanism :       light
atmosphere
climate:          very hot
temperature       
  average:        51      C
  periphelion:    53      C
  aphelion:       50      C
illumination:     146%    x Earth's
oceans:           70%
  composition:    water
  tidal range:    1.6     m
atmosphere        
  main gases:     N2, O2
  traces &c.:     high O2
  class:          marginal
  pressure:       1.1     bar  (standard)

Sun & moons                                 apparent ...        tide induced
                  class                     size    period
       sun:       G6 V                      0.73°   26.6 hr         1.6   m

Generated using the star system generation sequence from GURS Space and significant house rules.

Copyright ©2010 Brett Evill

[sir_pudding]

It might be worthwhile to identify what the founders saw as the causes of the fall of the Roman Republic as they would take special care to ensure their constitution has protections against them. Also did they revive Republican Roman religion, or merely the secular institutions?

And are you are telling me now, that Bucky could have been actual Legionnaire prior to enlisting in the Marines? Ah man.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It might be worthwhile to identify what the founders saw as the causes of the fall of the Roman Republic as they would take special care to ensure their constitution has protections against them.

Exactly so.

I studied the history of Rome "from the Gracchi to Nero" in high school, but that was 1981 and (though I went to a school with respectable academics) it was only a high school class. So I'd be very interested in the opinions of those people on the forums who have made a deeper study than I.

Also did they revive Republican Roman religion, or merely the secular institutions?

I can't really see reviving the religion as credible. How would they make themselves believe it?

And are you are telling me now, that Bucky could have been actual Legionnaire prior to enlisting in the Marines? Ah man.

Umm. No?
Actually, my model does New Rome not dropping below GURPS TL 7, so any possible legionnaireity could be no more than nominal.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Brett

I can't really see reviving the religion as credible. How would they make themselves believe it?

I don't know, how does anybody make themselves believe anything? Yet even so men persist in making gods. If a second rate hack of a science fiction writer can invent a wealthy organized Church in the 20th century, or 19th century romantics revive a syncretic neo-gaelic druidism, or a 19th century professional treasure hunter can "discover" the forgotten history of the lost tribe of Israel in rural Missouri and leverage it into a powerful world religion all in the era of mass communication, the scientific method, and post enlightenment secular society, then it seems to me people can pretty much convince themselves to believe anything. I don't find a syncretic neo-Roman paganism any less plausible than the real life examples of syncretic religious movements.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Brett

Suppose it's about AD 2164. The Earth a bit overpopulated and slightly run-down, and setting up utopias in orbital habitats and Moon colonies has run into snags (they are hard places for any high degree of individual liberty). Terraforming Mars &c. is going to take centuries at least. There's a lot of conflict about: high-tech weapons, even high-tech improvised weapons, in a crowded world with worldwide news and communications make for a lot of scary stories in the news. And defence and security precautions have become irksome, even oppressive.

Suppose further that about 70 years ago a bunch of space enthusiasts used a one-way 'just-as-fast-as-light' gadget to found a colony at Tau Ceti. Since then there has been a small but steady exodus, and a total of 23 colonies have been established by a range of different enterprises from the government of China to the New Vinland Company by way of a splinter group of the international Scouting Movement. As yet the total emigration rate has been small: 10,000 people per year, or one in 1.5 million of the world's population. But recently (AD 2159) news arrived from the Tau Ceti colony that in 2147 its population had reached 100,000, and it had founded a university. Emigrating suddenly seems like not such as completely mad idea as all that.

Prolepsis: the two paragraphs preceding are background, not themselves what I want to discuss. Okay?

A bunch of admirers of the ancient Roman Republic decide to found a political utopia, and buy the colonisation rights to a habitable planet orbiting CD -37°10500 A.

Now, these people may be crackpots, but they aren't stupid. They are admirers of some Roman institutions, particularly the cursus honorum and the non-incumbency principle. But they are aware that the republican constitution had defects which led to the fall of the republic. Also, no-one is going there involuntarily, so the plebs are going to insist on constitutional protections. So naturally they believe that they have worked out what went wrong with Rome, and have adopted a mended version of the constitution of the Roman Republic. These enthusiasts are by no means all scholars, but they include some scholars, and are inspired by the work of scholars.

Question: What version of the Roman constitution are these enthusiasts likely to take as their starting-point? That is, what was the pinnacle of Roman constitutional development from a modern point of view?

Question: What are the main defects in that constitution, and how are our friends going to repair them?


Naturally, the project isn't going to work, and there will be tears before bedtime. But the plan has to be plausible enough to attract an average of 200 self-funding volunteers per year at least until the news gets back of how it has gone wrong.


Please, please, I beg. Do not de-rail this thread into a discussion of the American republic. Please?

I thinkd the biggest "flaw" here is you've established it is expensive, time consuming and produces limited results for Governments and megacorps to build colony sustaining vessels in near orbit around Earth or other convenient spots in the Solar system, but a buch of Hobbyists engaged in a not that popular hobby have the budget to go establish a colony in the Tau Ceti system?

One would expect lots of immigration from the near dictatorial local Habitats.

You need a serious drawback to discourage lots and lots of other folks filling up the Tau Ceti system and turning your future Rome into 'Just anudder tourist trap'.

My suggestion: I'm stealing from an 80s cartoon here, "Silverhawks". In it, EVERY person who traveled from Earth to the system the story takes place in is a cyborg. It's stated fully human travelers die in transit. Cyborging is the only way to get across the stars.

Similar situation: Your 'Romans' are people who've voluntarily had their brains encased in a life support jar and the jars hooked into robotic bodies that protect the brains from whatever kills humans otherwise. Human cells are shipped for quickening purposes to populate the new colony, but it's a lower priority for Earth since this project does not significantly relieve Population Pressure problems. It's a fail safe for the continuation of humanity if the solar system goes nuclear bonkers.

Their "day job" is prepping the new world for occupation. The shrinks who approved the project realized the need for recreation and people engaged in a long term shared recreation such as living in a Roman Empire meets those needs quite well. However, they and most of the other re-creationist recreationists are leery of those dice rollers on that other space station. :)

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

I thinkd the biggest "flaw" here is you've established it is expensive, time consuming and produces limited results for Governments and megacorps to build colony sustaining vessels in near orbit around Earth or other convenient spots in the Solar system, but a buch of Hobbyists engaged in a not that popular hobby have the budget to go establish a colony in the Tau Ceti system?

Not the bit I wanted to discuss in this thread.

I'll just say that for governments and megacorporations the problem is repatriating any benefits, given lightspeed transportation. All the benefits of migration under such constraints accrue strictly to the actual emigrants, and you can't expect governments of megacorps to pour money down a hole for very long. With them out of the picture "expensive" is compared to the resources of those enthusiasts who wish to emigration.

My timeline involves four governments founding space colonies in the 2120s. The first and nearest was the Chinese colony Xin Tiân Di, at 36 Ophiuchi B. That's 19.5 light-years away, which means that with the first ship launched in 2120 the news of their arrival would come to Earth until 2159. The program swallows money, ships, and selected people for 39 years before producing its first results. Enthusiasm won't last so long.

If you'd like to take this up I'd prefer that you not do so in this thread. Perhaps you could start another.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't find a syncretic neo-Roman paganism any less plausible than the real life examples of syncretic religious movements.

True. Now that you remind me I recall that I once spent an entire party chatting to a woman who professed herself a worshipper of Artemis. Nevertheless, it is not a direction I am keen to go. Though I guess it would give players an easy handle on characterisation. I'll think about it.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Brett

True. Now that you remind my I recall that I once spent an entire party chatting to a woman who professed herself a worshipper of Artemis. Nevertheless, it is not a direction I am keen to go. Though I guess it would give players an easy handle on characterisation. I'll think about it.

Perhaps this is because I live on the strange fae twilight boundary of Hollyweird and I personally know more people who follow a faith invented in the last 200 years or less than in any of the more established religions, but I actually find a political and cultural revival of Rome without at least an attempt at neo-pagan revival less plausible than the alternative.

[Cornelius]

Originally Posted by Brett

Question: What version of the Roman constitution are these enthusiasts likely to take as their starting-point? That is, what was the pinnacle of Roman constitutional development from a modern point of view?

Question: What are the main defects in that constitution, and how are our friends going to repair them?

Question 1: I would say the republic after Sulla's reforms, just before the institution of triumvirate. The consulate of Cicero, just to toss a well known name.

Question 2: The roman "constituion" had several flaws if we compare it to ours. Just to start romans didn't have a constitution in the modern sense of the term, but more a set of laws limited and defined by the "mos maiorum". One of the major flaw would be the overpower of rich classes over the poor ones. But I think that your colonist would stick to a "vanilla" version of roman republic than the true version.

Originally Posted by Brett

Please, please, I beg. Do not de-rail this thread into a discussion of the American republic. Please?

I would never, I swear on Jovis Optimus himself.