Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

[Sam Baughn]

An attempt at a template for Hrud, based on the description in Xenology.

Hrud
25 Points

Attributes: ST -2 [-20]; IQ -1 [-20].

Secondary Characteristics: Per +2 [10].

Advantages: Damage Resistance 2 [10]; Dark Vision [25]; Double Jointed [15]; Injury Tolerance (No Neck; Unbreakable Bones) [15]; Obscure 2 (Vision; Defensive, +50%; Stealthy, +100%; Always On, -50%) [8]; Reduced Consumption 4 (Cast Iron Stomach, -50%) [4]; Slippery 2 [4].

Disadvantages: Hideous Appearance [-16]; Lifebane [-10].

Unbreakable Bones is because I imagine it would be virtually impossible to snap a Hrud's limbs - they are just too flexible. An alternative method of representing that would be to give them Invertebrate instead.

Again, I think there should be some kind of social stigma or something for the less popular aliens (or possibly for all aliens - humanity is in some ways the 'dominant race' of the setting and they don't really tolerate other species) but I'm not quite sure what would be appropriate.

[Sam Baughn]

For a bit of old-school action, here's one of the best known collosal scorpion/centipede monsters of the 40k galaxy...

Catachan Devil - Juvenile

ST:   55     	HP:    55     	Speed: 6
DX:   10      	Will:  10  	Move: 12 
IQ:    3       	Per:   10
HT:   10      	FP:    10    	SM:   +4 
Dodge: 8   	Parry:  9  	DR:   10 

Claws (12): 6d+12 cutting.
Stinging Tendrils (12): Constriction attack + follow-up 2d toxic (HT-4 to resist).
Tail Stinger (12): 6d+12 impaling + follow up 2d toxic (HT-4 to resist).

Traits: Appearance (Monstrous), Bad Temper, Constriction Attack, Extra Attack 1, Extra Legs (20 legs), Infravision, No Fine Manipulators, Wild Animal.

Skills: Brawling-12; Stealth-12; Tracking-12.


Catachan Devil - Adult

ST:  110     	HP:   110     	Speed: 6
DX:   10      	Will:  10  	Move: 12 
IQ:    3       	Per:   10
HT:   10      	FP:    10    	SM:   +6 
Dodge: 8   	Parry:  9  	DR:   20 

Claws (12): 12d+24 cutting.
Stinging Tendrils (12): Constriction attack + follow-up 3d toxic (HT-4 to resist).
Tail Stinger (12): 12d+24 impaling + follow up 3d toxic (HT-4 to resist).

Traits: Appearance (Monstrous), Bad Temper, Constriction Attack, Extra Attack 1, Extra Legs (40 legs), Infravision, No Fine Manipulators, Wild Animal.

Skills: Brawling-12; Stealth-12; Tracking-12.


Catachan Devil - Fully Grown

ST:  165     	HP:   165     	Speed: 6
DX:   10      	Will:  10  	Move: 12 
IQ:    3       	Per:   10
HT:   10      	FP:    10    	SM:   +7 
Dodge: 8   	Parry:  9  	DR:   30 

Claws (12): 17d+36 cutting.
Stinging Tendrils (12): Constriction attack + follow-up 4d toxic (HT-4 to resist).
Tail Stinger (12): 17d+36 impaling + follow up 4d toxic (HT-4 to resist).

Traits: Appearance (Monstrous), Bad Temper, Constriction Attack, Extra Attack 1, Extra Legs (60 legs), Infravision, No Fine Manipulators, Wild Animal.

Skills: Brawling-12; Stealth-12; Tracking-12.

[CrimsonDawn]

I'm still thinking about Mass Combat with 40K..

I'm not sure the Walker modifier would work that well: it makes the unit -slower- in off-road terrain than, while the (in-universe) explanation for Sentinel's good scouting ability is the locomotion's usefulness in difficult terrain.


Then about Imperial Guard units: do you think IG should mostly possess Poor Equipment, or Inferior troops? Average troop quality sounds right ("long-service soldiers in a force with indifferent leadership"), but basic IG equipment really seems to be behind TL 9, especially on the communications side. Or is this just a feature of the troop quality?

How about space marine vehicles? Devastators, how about them? A rhino would be a Large APC, if 5 marines are Wt 1, but cramming a full squad of devastators in there in Mass Combat seems to be difficult.

Any ideas for vehicles in general? Many vehicles of the universe would be Arm, Art, but there's only Assault Gun in Mass Combat that would fit. That still doesn't quite seem to fit.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

I'm not sure the Walker modifier would work that well: it makes the unit -slower- in off-road terrain than, while the (in-universe) explanation for Sentinel's good scouting ability is the locomotion's usefulness in difficult terrain.

If infantry don't get special rules for being able to move through terrain whcih vehicles couldn't handle, I find it hard to justify for walkers.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

Then about Imperial Guard units: do you think IG should mostly possess Poor Equipment, or Inferior troops? Average troop quality sounds right ("long-service soldiers in a force with indifferent leadership"), but basic IG equipment really seems to be behind TL 9, especially on the communications side. Or is this just a feature of the troop quality?

I'd generally describe the guard as average or good troops (they are selected from the cream of the PDF, given a lot of tough training and generally have combat experience) with equipment which might be poor, basic or good depending on the regiment. They do lack a lot of the stuff I would expect TL9 soldiers to have as standard, like night fighting gear (although that may just mean that they don't have the night feature) and advanced communications, but on the other hand, they do have some gear (including pretty much all their weapons) which is considerably better than normal for TL9. I'd say Catachans, Mordians and Krieg would have poor equipment (but all probably both qualify as good troops) while regiments like the Harkoni and Terrax who have carapace armour for everyone and plasma or melta weapons as standard squad issue would qualify for good equipment.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

How about space marine vehicles? Devastators, how about them? A rhino would be a Large APC, if 5 marines are Wt 1, but cramming a full squad of devastators in there in Mass Combat seems to be difficult.

I'd say a devastator squad would be roughly equivalent to an ATGM (representing several lighter anti-tank weapons) and a couple of HSWs.

I'd say rhinos are large APCs, razorbacks are IFVs, land raiders are enlarged IFVs, predators are medium tanks, vindicators are enlarged assault guns (or possibly CEVs) and whirlwinds are SP artillery.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

Any ideas for vehicles in general? Many vehicles of the universe would be Arm, Art, but there's only Assault Gun in Mass Combat that would fit. That still doesn't quite seem to fit.

Assault guns are often the best fit, even though they may not look much like normal assault guns. Large vehicles, or those equipped with dozer blades, may qualify for Neutralize (engineering)... it's not a perfect fit, but I wanted to keep new rules to a minimum.

Many ground vehicles (especially tanks) will have equipment and troop quality significantly worse than their infantry counterparts.

[CrimsonDawn]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

If infantry don't get special rules for being able to move through terrain whcih vehicles couldn't handle, I find it hard to justify for walkers.

That's true, though the Scout Sentinel has Move Through Cover - but that's maybe just a factor with them having Rec. Rough Terrain Modifications would be Terrain feature, I guess.

Should Walkers that have Foot mobility lose Cv, and maybe Rec too? And I'm thinking that with most 40K walkers, halving Wt is really no advantage compared to losing very much of mobility.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

I'd generally describe the guard as average or good troops (they are selected from the cream of the PDF, given a lot of tough training and generally have combat experience) with equipment which might be poor, basic or good depending on the regiment. They do lack a lot of the stuff I would expect TL9 soldiers to have as standard, like night fighting gear (although that may just mean that they don't have the night feature) and advanced communications, but on the other hand, they do have some gear (including pretty much all their weapons) which is considerably better than normal for TL9. I'd say Catachans, Mordians and Krieg would have poor equipment (but all probably both qualify as good troops) while regiments like the Harkoni and Terrax who have carapace armour for everyone and plasma or melta weapons as standard squad issue would qualify for good equipment.

Agree on Quality.. most of Guard would fit to "long service soldiers with indifferent leadership, training or morale".. and the distinct lack of communication gear might just be a part of that. Melta as standard issue would be Neutralize (Armor), I think.
What about heavy weapons? Chimera is an IFV, but it can't fit both the squad and the heavy support weapon. A simple answer would be that it's Enlarged x1.5, though that would still not fit anti-tank support weapons in, and would also make it maybe too much larger than a Rhino. The same problem is with Space Marine heavy weapon marines. Simply saying that the squads having a Missile Launcer or a Lascannon have Neutralize (Armor) doesn't really work, because that leaves the problem of differentiating a squad with an Autocannon or Heavy Bolter, or nothing at all.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

I'd say a devastator squad would be roughly equivalent to an ATGM (representing several lighter anti-tank weapons) and a couple of HSWs.

I figured something like that, too.

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

I'd say rhinos are large APCs, razorbacks are IFVs, land raiders are enlarged IFVs, predators are medium tanks, vindicators are enlarged assault guns (or possibly CEVs) and whirlwinds are SP artillery.

With the Good troop quality for SM, yeah for the first three. Rhino would be Good Equipment, and Land Raider would probably rate for Very Fine equipment (fluffwise, I think). As Siege Tanks, Vindicator would be an Enlarged CEV, but I'm beginning to think Assault Gun (usually Enlarged) is mostly the only way to handle the artillery tanks of 40K, with equipment and troop quality being the differentiation.. and maybe adding Super-Soldier if the numbers seem too low (like for example for Leman Russ Demolisher).

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Assault guns are often the best fit, even though they may not look much like normal assault guns. Large vehicles, or those equipped with dozer blades, may qualify for Neutralize (engineering)... it's not a perfect fit, but I wanted to keep new rules to a minimum.

Many ground vehicles (especially tanks) will have equipment and troop quality significantly worse than their infantry counterparts.

There is no Neutralize (Engineering), though. I don't think a dozer blade (upgrade) should do much anything in Mass Combat.



Should this stuff be statted in the thread, too?

[CrimsonDawn]

Now that I think of it, maybe Land Raider should be Fine Equipment Super-Soldier.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

Should Walkers that have Foot mobility lose Cv, and maybe Rec too?

I'd phrase it more as 'units with mech mobility and Cv or Rec features probably shouldn't be given the walker feature'.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

And I'm thinking that with most 40K walkers, halving Wt is really no advantage compared to losing very much of mobility.

I'd say that being able to cram twice as many units into a dropship is a pretty significant advantage.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

Agree on Quality.. most of Guard would fit to "long service soldiers with indifferent leadership, training or morale"..

What makes you say that? Guard have famously good morale and training which seems at least comparable to modern militaries (if somewhat more brutal). Leadership might vary in quality, but is generally portrayed as fairly effective.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

and the distinct lack of communication gear might just be a part of that.

Communications gear is hardly absent. In most guard novels they have microbead vox communicators and those backpack vox sets have a global range. It's just a bit shoddy; prone to not working at dramatically appropriate times (often justified with a handwave to 'atmospherics') and not as well encrypted or stealthy as I would expect from TL 9 gear.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

Melta as standard issue would be Neutralize (Armor), I think.

The point I was trying to make is that they are packing weapons you wouldn't usually see until TL 11 in a (overall) TL 9 force.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

What about heavy weapons? Chimera is an IFV, but it can't fit both the squad and the heavy support weapon. A simple answer would be that it's Enlarged x1.5, though that would still not fit anti-tank support weapons in, and would also make it maybe too much larger than a Rhino. The same problem is with Space Marine heavy weapon marines. Simply saying that the squads having a Missile Launcer or a Lascannon have Neutralize (Armor) doesn't really work, because that leaves the problem of differentiating a squad with an Autocannon or Heavy Bolter, or nothing at all.

Presence or absence of special and heavy weapons is best considered as part of overall equipment quality. A unit with good equipment is more likely to have powerful support weapons as part of it's gear, like an autocannon and a plasma gun, while one with poor equipment may only have a grenade launcher or something.

I'd say Neutralize (armor) is a perfect fit for a squad with anti-tank weapons. If carrying the weapons makes them less effective at shooting infantry compared to a squad who have a different support weapon, then lower their equipment quality.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

There is no Neutralize (Engineering), though.

You can neutralize any special class - the list on MC10 is specifically noted as examples, not a comprehensive list.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

I don't think a dozer blade (upgrade) should do much anything in Mass Combat.

You're probably right there.

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

Should this stuff be statted in the thread, too?

I wanted to take some time to think it over, but I was planning to detail at least a few of the more common forces in the mass combat system eventually.

[CrimsonDawn]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

You can neutralize any special class - the list on MC10 is specifically noted as examples, not a comprehensive list.

Right, my bad. Still, Neutralize (Engineering) would still be a bit weird for most of the 40K siege vehicles, they'd rather have Engineering..

I might post some of my ideas later, if that's ok - but now it's getting late.

But your points are all very good, I'm hoping to see how they'll work.

Btw, how do you suppose close assault troops, like sluggas or berzerkers, or genestealers would work? Low Tech units with doublings of TS per TL, not x1.25?

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by CrimsonDawn

Btw, how do you suppose close assault troops, like sluggas or berzerkers, or genestealers would work? Low Tech units with doublings of TS per TL, not x1.25?

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

New Units

Fast Assault Unit (TL6): A high mobility unit optimised for close quarters combat. This can represent cavalry armed with ultra-tech melee weapons, bio-engineered killing machines or troops using jump packs to launch themselves directly into combat.

Shock Troops (TL6): Similar to riflemen, but lacking the training and equipment for fighting in loose formations and performing reconnaisance duties.

Element			TS	Class	WT	Mob	Raise	Maintain	TL
Fast Assault Unit	30	Cv, Rec	2	Mtd	125K	25K		6
Shock Troops		40	F	1	Foot	40K	10K		6

Most tyranid assault units can be handled with the Fast Assault Units - each element could represent anything from a single lictor to ten hormagaunts. Big monsters will usually be CEVs with the walker feature.

Striking scorpions, harlequins and howling banshees work well as Fast Assault Units too. Eldar jetbikes would be sky troopers. Wraithlords could be either battlesuits or MBT with the walker feature. I'm not really familiar with dark wldar, but I think most of their assault units will be along those lines.

Ork boys will generally just be Shock Troops - in the background they don't tend to split themselves neatly into sluggas and shootas, but just gather in mobs with whatever weapons they have. Ork stormboys and wildboys with grunta mounts would be Fast Assault Units. Ork dreads and kans will probably be CEV with the walker feature.

Berzerkers of Khorne are just Shock Troops, like other chaos marines. They can still use ranged weapons effectively and the background often fails to distinguish between them and normal chaos marines anyway - like orks, they aren't spilt into neat categories, but just assemble into warbands with each individual using whatever weapons they like.

Chaos Raptors and Loyalist Assault Marines are Fast Assault Units. Marine Dreadnaughts might be CEV or Heavy Tanks with the walker feature. Terminators probably just count as battlesuits, regardless of whether they are 'assault terminators' or not. In the background material (and space hulk) they aren't really divided into assault and regular terminators anyway.

Guard Rough Riders are either Fast Assault Units or Mounted Rifles, depending on whether they prefer to use lasguns or lances. Ogryns are shock troops. Guard infantry intended for close assault will often be combat engineers.

Bikes of any variety are generally motor recon.

[Sam Baughn]

A racial template for Tau.

Tau
20 points

Advantages: Damage Resistance 1 (Tough Skin, -40%) [3]; Hooves [3]; Magic Resistance 1 [2]; Reduced Consumption 2 (Water only, -50%) [2]; Ultravision [10].

The above template is suitable for members of the Fire Caste. Members of other castes should add one of the lenses below.

Air Caste: ST-1 [-10]; SM+1 [0]; 3D Spatial Sense [10]; Improved G-Tolerance (0.5 g) [10]; Cowardice (15) [-5]. +5 points.

Earth Caste: Artificer 1 [10]; Combat Paralysis [-15]. -5 points.

Ethereal Caste: Charisma 2 (Only on Tau, -10%; Scent Based, -20%) [7]; Social Regard 4 (Venerated) [20]. +27 points.

Water Caste: ST -1 [-10]; Smooth Operator 1 [15]; Social Chameleon [5]; Pacifism (Reluctant Killer) [-5]. +5 points.


The concept that non-fire caste tau are bred to be incompetent in combat is inferred from some vague hints in the background material. The specific disadvantages used to accomplish this were chosen on a fairly arbitrary basis, mostly informed by what 'felt right' to me.

The reduced consumption and the air caste's advantages are derived from the descriptions in Imperial Armour Vol.3, the Earth and Water caste are based on descriptions (and an illustration) in the Tau codex and the Ethereal caste's phermone-based Charisma comes from some speculation in the Tau codex and Xenology.

There are various different descriptions of how good Tau vision is - most mention them being able to see in a wider spectrum than humans. Some background sources suggest that Tau have poor distance vision, although this comes from The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and Xenology, two sources generally considered wildly inconsistent with other background material. Xenology also suggests that they may have an extremely good sense of smell.