Are reaction modifiers too cheap?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The frequency of extreme reactions (both good and bad) is much too high; a normal reaction roll should be limited to outcomes of Poor, Neutral, and Good.

I totally don't buy this.

Any roll from 7 through 15 will be one of those three already; that's 186/216 or 86%. And for the really extreme rolls, you'll get a Very Bad one roll in 216, and a Disastrous or Excellent never, on an unmodified roll.

Now, in the first place, you really only make a handful of reaction rolls in any normal game; it's quite rare that a game will have two or more strong reactions.

And in the second place, the statistics of rpgs aren't the same as the statistics of real life. rpgs are supposed to be interesting and dramatic, which means that they focus on the small fraction of life when exceptional events happen, not on the long stretches where everything is routine. For example, a cop rpg, like a cop television series, doesn't play out the many nights of routine street patrol when no crime is encountered. So having the statistics of rpgs exaggerate the odds of a good or bad reaction is just part of making things interesting and dramatic.

Bill Stoddard

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Any roll from 7 through 15 will be one of those three already; that's 186/216 or 86%. And for the really extreme rolls, you'll get a Very Bad one roll in 216, and a Disastrous or Excellent never, on an unmodified roll.

I suppose that a 14% chance of getting a result that is not P-N-G might be too much if those are all you want.

I don't have a problem with the assertion that normal reaction rolls might be better limited to those results. Maybe you could just houserule a symmetrical table; 3-8=Poor, 9-12=Neutral, 13-18=Good?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Any roll from 7 through 15 will be one of those three already; that's 186/216 or 86%. And for the really extreme rolls, you'll get a Very Bad one roll in 216, and a Disastrous or Excellent never, on an unmodified roll.

In other words, the odds of an extreme response are 14% too high.

Originally Posted by whswhs

Now, in the first place, you really only make a handful of reaction rolls in any normal game; it's quite rare that a game will have two or more strong reactions.

Actually, in my games, the number of reaction rolls is zero, since I don't use them, but in a by-the-book sandbox game, reaction rolls apply to pretty much any npc who doesn't have a preset opinion.

Originally Posted by whswhs

And in the second place, the statistics of rpgs aren't the same as the statistics of real life.

Sure, but the exotic results should be by GM fiat, not by random roll. Random event handling is for background, not major plot points.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Actually, in my games, the number of reaction rolls is zero, since I don't use them

Do you downgrade traits that give reaction modifiers to perks, quirks and features?

[starslayer]

I don't think that charisma is overpriced as a conditional bonus to some negotiation skills- in a mundane game like any talent it should be capped at 4 levels, is a less mundane game, perhaps let it go higher, or cap the skill bonus at 4 but let the reaction bonus keep stacking.

Even then, assume you have charisma +16; no matter what you roll you have a 19 reaction, what does that ultimately do for the PC:

I will take the hypothetical example of a PC attempting to break into the royal treasury.

General reaction: react with PCs best interest at all times, within the limit of ability, this however does not cover requests for aid (which is separate and lower down the reaction table)- So the +16 charisma PC can walk right up to the treasury guards and strike up a conversation, they'll recommend the best bars, gossip, and find nothing ominous about him talking to them asking about work and other things that might be useful in breaking into the treasury later. The guards would also likely mention with just vague prodding that they personally never enter the treasury, and only the treasurer does, and they don't actually know what's past the big black door besides a hallway and another door.

Commercial Transactions: If a pawn shop buys things for 1/20 of value normally, and sells for 1/2 value, the PC can sell there gear for 1/10, and buy for 1/4; they still won't be able to make a 'break the system' by buying and selling the same item until they have a mountain of gold, but they will do significantly better then the guy who gets a normal reaction. The merchant also might point out that the royal treasury is magically marked to prevent theft, and that all the locks are magical, since he sold the king the locks, and not under the control of the guards, so the PC should buy some meteoric lock picks, or else convince the treasurer to give them the key.

Requests for aid: NPCs help in every way they are able within there power. They are not required to kill themselves; thus if the PC asks the guards 'hey could you guys just look away while i spend an hour picking at this lock'- they will say no, they'd be beheaded if someone found out; however they might offer up that IF the pc were to have <disguise x> and have <official documentation y> and open the door right away they'd let him right through; they also might mention that the night shift is known to take long breaks if a good looking prostitute solicits them earlier in the night. Asking the merchant for a key would yield similar results, he can't just give you a key, everyone would know and he'd be ruined, however he has no problem mentioning that the treasurer has lost more then 5 of them since he first installed the locks, and that he'll be gone for a week on a diplomatic mission next month. - In both cases the high charisma assures that the NPC is sympathetic to the PCs plight; somehow he waves a tale about his need to get into the treasure so compelling or so 'obviously fictitious' that they happily fill in details.
The PC might also , and if they can stay at the treasurer's house while he's gone, which is an odd request, but does not on the surface seem to put the treasurer in immediate danger, so he might grant it

Requests for information- covered above; though the PC might ask the treasurer and ask him where he thinks he lost one of those keys while they are asking to stay at his place.

Loyalty: before you can make use of loyalty the NPCs loyalty has to be for hire; the treasurer, and the guards are both likely above bribes so this won't apply to them. However the treasurer's servant may be willing to accept a bribe, in which case they are fully loyal to the PCs cause, and might 'turn up' one of the lost keys, as well as letting the PC grab the treasurer's <disguise x> and <official documentation y> regardless of the fact that the servant will be implicated and likely hanged if caught (of course, usurping the servants' carrier and putting there life of the line won't be cheap even for 50% off).

A simple fast talk roll to the guards again now that you have official markings can get the PC inside, assuming some further magical trap that no one he talked to knows about does not kill him he can remove items up to a reasonable carry from the treasury (and perhaps even get one of the guards to help him carry it out if they are present, but they likely won't let the PC take anything that is recognizably priceless; like the crown jewels; if the guards aren't there due to making use of talking a prostitute into soliciting the night shift then the PC can waltz out with as much as he can carry). Once the theft is discovered protocols will change, people will realize they have been duped (getting a negative modifier to reacting to that PC again, and the PCs face will be at least vaguely described to the law enforcement as a person of interest.

So Charisma+16 will let you get into the kings treasury and take some things, but not everything, get on a wanted list <that the PC can likely talk themselves out of, once or twice>; but it requires 7 rolls on social skills, at any which point a critical failure could result in disaster. Intangibility and invisibility, or warp with high skill and blind, or mind control, or innumerate other combinations would likely get you there quicker and easier, as well as point wise cheaper, but without as much role playing along the way.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Do you downgrade traits that give reaction modifiers to perks, quirks and features?

No, I charge full price. I use reaction modifiers (to modify social skills), I just don't use reaction rolls.

My preferred 'charisma' would work as follows:

Charisma: secondary stat, base value 10, cost 10/level
Acts as the base for all social skills. In addition, in a situation where you come across a group whose reactions to the PCs are uncertain, make a roll vs Charisma. On a success, pick the better of the two likely outcomes; on a failure, pick the worse. On a critical success or critical failure, the reaction is unusually severe. Any reaction modifiers which would modify a social skill also modify this roll. This roll may be replaced by any appropriate social skill.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

No, I charge full price. I use reaction modifiers (to modify social skills), I just don't use reaction rolls.

What about for characters that don't have or use Influence skills? Is Oblivious free points in your games for instance?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What about for characters that don't have or use Influence skills?

They get to suck if a situation comes up when they need to be social and are rolling against their default skill?

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Is Oblivious free points in your games for instance?

Don't think I've ever had someone take it, and I'm puzzled why the disad doesn't include a -1 to Sense Motive, but no, Oblivious isn't free points.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

They get to suck if a situation comes up when they need to be social and are rolling against their default skill?

What if they don't bother with trying to influence the NPC at all? What if they just want to pay list price, or simply ask a question? What skill do you use for when the PCs aren't vamping, threatening, or lying to the NPCs? Diplomacy?

Don't think I've ever had someone take it, and I'm puzzled why the disad doesn't include a -1 to Sense Motive, but no, Oblivious isn't free points.

Because this is GURPS, and not D&D?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What if they don't bother with trying to influence the NPC at all? What if they just want to pay list price, or simply ask a question?

Depends on the situation. They'll get whatever I figure someone inept would get.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What skill do you use for when the PCs aren't vamping, threatening, or lying to the NPCs? Diplomacy?

Usually that will be Savoire-Faire, though occasionally it will be Carousing.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Because this is GURPS, and not D&D?

Sorry, I should have said Detect Lies and Psychology. The point being, the word 'oblivious' means that the person lacks awareness, and yet the skills for awareness of other people's feelings are not modified by the disad..