GURPS Heavy Gear

[Icelander]

Have some of the DR be Ablative. Adjust amount to taste.

Add a sprinkling of basil.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by lexington

No offense but, why not? If you want to maintain the feel of the game you should slide around DR and HP values until they're close to what you want. It seems to me that Heavy Gear and GURPS make a few key assumptions differently and that is preventing a direct conversion from working. I guess this is why I got confused, if some things need to be more durable just make them more durable.

Because then it won't mesh up with other GURPS vehicles. Other Dream Pod 9 games, like Gear Kreig use the same system, with the same values. Eventually, I'd like to have a plug-and-play formula that I can use to convert any Dream Pod 9 game into GURPS.

BattleTech was actually this easy. I know Heavy Gear isn't, but I'm hoping that I can simplify it to where it is.

You are very correct: Heavy Gear is much more abstract than GURPS. The funny part of it is that Heavy Gear actually gives us the information we would need to convert it into GURPS, but the numbers don't mesh with the way the game plays.

Originally Posted by lexington

I have to say I'm curious where you got this equation for DR: (((AV²)/25.4)×70)

Armor Value in Heavy Gear is equal to the square root of the equivelant thickness in mm of armor grade steel (Heavy Gear Technical Manual, 2nd Edition, pg 74). One inch of armor-grade steel is DR 60-70. Since this Heavy Gear takes place in the 62nd century, I went with DR 70.

So, it's the Armor Value squared, divided by 25.4 to turn it into inches, then multiplied by 70.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Have some of the DR be Ablative. Adjust amount to taste.

While I like this idea, and was looking at it, until all the ADR is gone, the vehicle still won't take any "damage."

Originally Posted by Icelander

Add a sprinkling of basil.

I'd rather add bacon.

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

We need a weapon that can damage heavily armored targets, but not obliterate lesser armored targets (a common GURPS conundrum) in the same hit.

If you keep increasing the Armor Divisor on the weapons, while reducing damage, I think you'll find the 'sweet spot' you're looking for.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

While I like this idea, and was looking at it, until all the ADR is gone, the vehicle still won't take any "damage."

Although I don't know much about the specifics of Heavy Gear, I'd also use at least a good portion of ablative DR. Did this once in a GURPS Starcraft campaign and it worked quite good.

Though you're right that the loss of armor, is not "real damage" yet.
Basically I'd try making it possible to destroy secondary systems like sensors more easily!
The classic idea would be something like: "The missile hits your vehicle and blows up a part of your front armor. Apparently the optical sensors on the front are also damaged by this attack, though your radar system is still working."

A possible option would be something like "Surge" from Powers p102, a weapon enhancement that forces damaged electronic systems to make HT checks against malfunctions or generally an Affliction Attack against electrical systems...

And/or the systems that could likely be damaged, e.g. the Hyperspectral Vision advantage as a sensor array, could be bought with something like the "Breakable"-limitation...

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Dustin

If you keep increasing the Armor Divisor on the weapons, while reducing damage, I think you'll find the 'sweet spot' you're looking for.

Well, the problem I run into with this, is that they have weapons that cover all sorts of armor divisors to begin with: Autocannons, Lasers, Anti-Tank Missiles, Railguns, Particle Beams.

So, generally, what I'm looking for is the Unified Theory of Heavy Gear.

Originally Posted by OldSam

Although I don't know much about the specifics of Heavy Gear, I'd also use at least a good portion of ablative DR. Did this once in a GURPS Starcraft campaign and it worked quite good.

After having slept on it, I'm considering a rule where all weapons that do at least 20d damage treat armor as semi-ablative. That way, while you're not hurting them with direct hits, you are wearing their armor down.

Originally Posted by OldSam

Though you're right that the loss of armor, is not "real damage" yet.
Basically I'd try making it possible to destroy secondary systems like sensors more easily!

The classic idea would be something like: "The missile hits your vehicle and blows up a part of your front armor. Apparently the optical sensors on the front are also damaged by this attack, though your radar system is still working."

I was going to try to use the GURPS Vehicular Combat System from Campaigns, and the to-hit tables. Which may or may not work out.

Originally Posted by OldSam

A possible option would be something like "Surge" from Powers p102, a weapon enhancement that forces damaged electronic systems to make HT checks against malfunctions or generally an Affliction Attack against electrical systems...

That's, um, actually a feature of the Haywire weapons from Heavy Gear

Originally Posted by OldSam

And/or the systems that could likely be damaged, e.g. the Hyperspectral Vision advantage as a sensor array, could be bought with something like the "Breakable"-limitation...

I'm thinking of just having all their aux systems protected by a lower armor value.

[Anthony]

When converting many systems to GURPS (and, from what I remember, Heavy Gear is no exception), you'll have the problem that in GURPS, the difference between 'target slightly damaged' and 'target obliterated' is quite small -- for armored vehicles, it might be as little as 50% more damage. In many other games, this difference is much larger; IIRC in heavy gear (been a long time) it takes about 4x as much damage (16x as much penetration) to obliterate a target as to slightly damage it. In Starcraft, to give another example, the difference between 'damage a battleship' (3 armor, so 4 points) and 'obliterate a battleship' (503 points) is more than a factor of 100.

Ablative DR or damage divisors are usually the easiest way to manage this.

[Ragitsu]

A layer of Ablative DR, then Semi-Ablative DR and regular DR. Each one may have various levels of Hardened, depending on the suit itself.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

A layer of Ablative DR, then Semi-Ablative DR and regular DR. Each one may have various levels of Hardened, depending on the suit itself.

Hmm, wouldn't that mean a bit too much calculation and keeping track of the different changing values during combat? I'd be afraid that it could noticeable reduce the game speed... Though it could work, didn't try it with several layers myself.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Anthony

When converting many systems to GURPS (and, from what I remember, Heavy Gear is no exception), you'll have the problem that in GURPS, the difference between 'target slightly damaged' and 'target obliterated' is quite small -- for armored vehicles, it might be as little as 50% more damage. In many other games, this difference is much larger; IIRC in heavy gear (been a long time) it takes about 4x as much damage (16x as much penetration) to obliterate a target as to slightly damage it. In Starcraft, to give another example, the difference between 'damage a battleship' (3 armor, so 4 points) and 'obliterate a battleship' (503 points) is more than a factor of 100.

Exactly. My goal isn’t to accurately reflect the numbers of Heavy Gear, but the feel. And, I would want the rules to mesh with the rest of GURPS. I don’t want to shoehorn GURPS into Heavy Gear, I am, however, willing to shoehorn Heavy Gear into GURPS. The two, huge, problems I’m running into with Heavy Gear is A, their math doesn’t jibe with their results and B, it’s way too abstract.

And, I agree with OldSam: extra bookkeeping = bad. I’m a huge fan of KISS (the concept, not the band).

Originally Posted by Anthony

Ablative DR or damage divisors are usually the easiest way to manage this.

They’re already unliving machines (and if Word changes that to “unloving” again, I’m going to go smack IT), but most of the weapons hitting them are going to be cr ex, burn or pi++. I’ve been strongly considering a damage divisor of /2 or /3 to represent the ruggedness of how Gears are assembled. But, that feels like a shoehorn.

Another idea I’d had, and it’s probably a bad idea, is basing the Gear’s DR/HP off of it’s Overkill value (AV x 3). But, that strikes me as a bad idea.

[shadowjack]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Exactly. My goal isn’t to accurately reflect the numbers of Heavy Gear, but the feel. And, I would want the rules to mesh with the rest of GURPS. I don’t want to shoehorn GURPS into Heavy Gear, I am, however, willing to shoehorn Heavy Gear into GURPS. The two, huge, problems I’m running into with Heavy Gear is A, their math doesn’t jibe with their results and B, it’s way too abstract.

And, I agree with OldSam: extra bookkeeping = bad. I’m a huge fan of KISS (the concept, not the band).

This may be a silly question, but why not approach it from the GURPS side first? That is, use GURPS's guidelines for equipment ratings, and match them to the flavor descriptions in Heavy Gear.


My Heavy Gear books are in a box, at the moment, but working off the top of my head from shady memory:

A Hunter mecha had armor roughly equivalent to a good armored car, didn't it? Or an old light tank? So, just for eyeballing, we grab the Cold War Armored Car stats from GURPS High-Tech: DR 40 front, DR 20 flanks. The armored car's HP are even close to your 100 HP estimate.

It's armed with a Light Autocannon, you say? Well, let's pick… hmm. The Hughes M242 Bushmaster, same book. That's a 25mm autocannon, usually firing SAPHE-SD-T, for 6dx4 pi++ follow-up 3d+2 [1d+1] cr ex; RoF 3, 30 shots; 1/2D 2400 yards, Max 3300 yards.



So, one Hunter fires a burst at the other, and scores one hit. Crack! An average hit on the front does… 84, minus 40 for 44, x1 for huge piercing, plus the follow-up explosion for 12 more. He's down to 44 hit points, damaged but not seriously so, yet. But if the piercing damage had done a few points more, this would have been "major damage", causing a vehicle system to malfunction.

A near miss would do only the explosive burst damage and fragmentation—which this armor can shrug off easily.

A lucky hit on the flank with all three rounds could do around 350 damage, knocking him to -250. HT roll or it's wrecked, major damage even if you make the roll, and from now on, HT rolls each second in operation to resist malfunction. (Eyeballing the tank cannon stats, I'd say a good tank could do this from the front in a single shot. Wham.)

And a critical hit, of course, could blow it sky high.

I note that there's no way you could really harm a proper tank with this armament… unless you fought like a Gear, using cover, getting close, and aiming for vulnerable points. Or used bombs or a Panzerfaust.



I am probably way off on my memories of the Heavy Gear stats and descriptions, but that all feels pretty right to me for a one-on-one heavy gear duel, about the right level of risk to fit my mental image. Whether I've got the numbers right or not, the point is that doing it this way means you don't have to grind your way through some weapons formula unless there's some weapon that doesn't have a direct equivalent; you just start with work GURPS has already done for you, and tweak it to match.



Another reason I say this is that some of your estimated numbers break my suspension of disbelief. A "light" autocannon that does damage like a 75mm tank gun carried by a mere 7-ton mecha with more armor protection than a WWII tank with five times its mass… well, no wonder they're either shrugging off all harm, or getting splattered like eggs! :)