Grappling with legs + arms

[Sdrolion]

Hey--back with another question for the forums. I know there's rules on MA pg. 79 for leg grapples and for the scissors hold, but that isn't quite what I'm looking for here.

What I'm looking for is a way to simulate the thing I think we've all probably seen in a film at least once: small guy is fighting big guy, small guy jumps up on the big guy's back, wraps his legs around the guy's chest and one arm around his neck, and starts trying to pummel him in the head with his other hand. (Or slit his throat, as the case may be). Using the legs and an arm presumably helps him hold on better, partially countering the big guy's better ST.

This isn't necessarily a "from behind" move, mind--that's just the most common example I could think of. He could also jump up on the chest from the front and do basically the same thing. Or, heck, with enough size difference a character might wrap both arms and legs around a big guy's leg and hang on for dear life while the guy tries to shake him off, just to give him some trouble moving.

(If the "one arm around the neck" makes you uncomfortable, assume he wraps the arm under or over the shoulder and around the chest instead--still a torso grapple, then. The important thing is that he's using one or two arms and two legs to grapple.)

I play a small, low-ST character in a game, and don't really plan on this being a major thing for the character (and really, I'm fine if it isn't available at all), but I thought that if it was available he might do it at some point, so I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about how to represent such a move.

Edit: It occurs to me that I might be overthinking this. Would it be appropriate to just rule that this uses the same rules as "Extra Arms" would (MA pg. 114), but also gives a single +2 bonus for using the legs and a single -2 to skill for using the legs? Presuming he's using both arms and both legs, that would come out to +6 to ST (+2 for each limb over 2, and +2 for using legs), and +2 to hit (+2 for each limb over 2, but -2 for using the legs). An overall +6 to ST to block the guy from breaking free is pretty huge, though--it would let my ST 9 guy act at ST 15 to oppose breaking free. Admittedly, though, trying to get someone off you when they've got both arms and both legs wrapped around you would be really hard, even if you're pretty strong. (And of course to attack with C weapons, the grappler would have to let go with one arm, losing 2 of that ST bonus...so 13 ST remaining in my case, which would be considerable benefit but not as overwhelming.)

[Bruno]

This actually got tested "live action" at one of our game sessions in early college - I blame too much cola - and it does appear really quite difficult to shake the weedy little guy off.

The bigger player tried to do the usual "movie big guy" trick of smooshing the little guy against the wall to make him drop off, but we discovered that domestic wallboard can't stand up to that sort of abuse.

Trying to explain to room-mates why there was a hole exactly the size and shape of Owen's butt about 5 feet off the ground in the front hall was difficult.

So I think your EDIT has a good idea and it's in the right ballpark.

[Sdrolion]

LOL! Fortunately we haven't tried to do much live testing in my gaming group. We play in my townhome, and I don't think the neighbors would appreciate butt-shaped holes in the walls. O_O

[aesir23]

Yes, I agree. Using the extra arms rules in MA makes the most sense. Just remember that if the big guy has buddies, that little guy's going to have his kidneys forcibly removed unless he let's go pretty soon.

[RobKamm]

I believe the claim that interior drywall can't stand up to that abuse. However, exterior brick walls and floors are both perfect for it. Incidently, if the big guy can jump up and land on their back the little guy will have put himself into a position where they can get racked by the entire weight of the larger person. I don't know if this is a high probability outcome: no one ever tried jumping on my back after the first time...

[Sam Baughn]

I'd say that the leg grapple is a second attack, but let you do both arm and leg grapples at once with a 'dual weapon attack' at -4/-6 to hit.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by RobKamm

I believe the claim that interior drywall can't stand up to that abuse. However, exterior brick walls and floors are both perfect for it. Incidently, if the big guy can jump up and land on their back the little guy will have put himself into a position where they can get racked by the entire weight of the larger person. I don't know if this is a high probability outcome: no one ever tried jumping on my back after the first time...

Yeah taking it to the ground (in a one on one fight) is a pretty good idea. There should be a lot of opportunities for takedowns and throws from there as well. It really is actually a pretty bad idea in real life, if the big guy is a at all skilled.

[Sdrolion]

Just did notice one thing, though--the "Extra Legs" entry, just after "Extra Arms," suggests that pairs of legs should count as one extra limb for grappling "using the legs." I'm honestly kind of thinking that sounds a little more right, especially when I realize that I forgot to take into account the +5 to ST for opposing breaking free for using two hands in the first place.

If the legs count individually, you get +2 for using the legs, +2 for leg 1, +2 for leg 2, and +5 for both hands, for a total of +11 ST.

If the legs count as a pair, you get +2 for using the legs, +2 for the pair of legs, and +5 for both hands, for +9 ST.

It's a small difference, but it seems a little more reasonable to me.

As far as the falling down to hurt the smaller guy thing--yes, that is an option, but it partially assumes that 1) that immediately occurs to you, because the small guy may be stabbing you in the throat in the next moment, and 2) you are willing to put yourself in a disadvantageous position by lying down. In a fight against one person, that might be a good move, but in a fight against more than one person, the defensive penalties for lying down might get you killed even if you're able to free yourself that way.

Also, I'd assume the small guy would get a dodge vs. that, and small guys do tend to be good at dodging.

[RobKamm]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yeah taking it to the ground (in a one on one fight) is a pretty good idea. There should be a lot of opportunities for takedowns and throws from there as well. It really is actually a pretty bad idea in real life, if the big guy is a at all skilled.

Well, yes. It was a one-on-one situation and going to the ground in a group situation is bad (because that's when the stomping starts). And it wasn't a serious fight, it was two guys horsing around (and neither really trained with any sort of martial art) and one of them did something, the other reacted, and the first one got an embarassing falsetto for a minute or so. Would it have been a fight ender? With adrenaline flowing? No, I don't think so. But it could lead to enough of a stun that the small guy could release his grip -- which is the big guy's objective.

As for dodging the stop-and-drop, the small guy would have to realize what was happening and release his grapple in the time that it takes someone to fall to the ground. While focusing on climbing up another person and attacking them at the neck. Let me know how that works out for you. As it was, I had grabbed his legs so that he really couldn't get away and then kicked my legs out from under myself. If he'd had a knife I (hope) that I would have forgone the leg grab and used my hands to keep the knife out of my throat.

My point was that Bruno's suggestion of using a wall was viable (subject to the right wall choice), and other similar options exist even when wall choices are limited (there is almost always a floor handy).