[DF] Holy water seems to have no purpose

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Thematically, I like Good as an anti-power for Evil but not vice versa, but Good having stronger behavioral restrictions than evil. Balanced, but not symmetric.

I wrote that based on DF's version of Holy Powers, in which having Social Stigma: Excommunicated has a supernatural effect. If the disadvantage isn't supernaturally meaninglful in your setting, then you'd need a different effect. It was intended as an example of an effect that would be more interesting and relevant than "negative holy water".

[Stone Dog]

Originally Posted by b-dog

AD&D is the most popular RPG ever.

Irrelevant. Quality comes from many sources, not the zealous mimicry of something popular.

GURPS is supposed to be a tool-kit where you can add what ever you want to a game or genre and the point values attempt to make the characters somewhat fair from different sources and genres.

It is, yes. That is the one objectively correct thing you have said about GURPS.

Further no other person has come close to the artisic vision that Gygax has given the genre

In your opinion, which is hardly universal. A great deal of D&D's marvelous flavor that you admire so also came from the people around him like Arneson and the other players in the group. Gygax was the big name and deserves a great deal of praise, but don't make the mistake of thinking that D&D was all his work. It was not. For example, the Dungeon as a concept was Arneson's and tomb raiding in fantasy gaming would be very different if it wasn't for him.

so I tend to view copying Gygaxian work fundemental to making a proper DF game.

Which would be very unethical on the part of SJG and unworthy of their reputation and skill. Copying the work of somebody else and publishing it is something we call "cheating" at best and "plagiarism" at worst.

You want to make your DF a clone of AD&D? There is nothing wrong with that. Hell, we'll basically be pretty glad to help in most cases. You'd get better results from the forum if you stop tagging every thread [DF] regardless of what your actual question is about* and quit this One True Way attitude that you have going.

Just don't expect the development team for the DF line to hamstring their talent and creativity by going over ground already well trodden.

There is room for GURPS stuff too but I tend not to use that type of stuff because I don't play a silly/slapstick style RPG.

This is where you continue to give evidence that you really need to read more. GURPS is not inherently silly or slapstick. GURPS writers just have a sense of humor about what they are doing.

You want to talk about silly? Go ask one of the original D&D players about how clerics showed up in the game. He goes by the name Old Geezer on RPGnet and EnWorld. He was also the guy who invented the Gelatinous Cube. They needed somebody who could counter the powers of Sir Fang the vampire and they tacked on healing as an afterthought. Some stuff about historical priests came later, but the start of the class was needing to smack around a vampire named SIR FANG.

*Here is a hint. The less your question has to do with something actually IN a DF supplement, the less chance your thread deserves a DF tag. Otherwise people with no interest in DF will avoid your thread even if they might have good advice.

[Stone Dog]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Thematically, I like Good as an anti-power for Evil but not vice versa, but Good having stronger behavioral restrictions than evil. Balanced, but not symmetric.

I really go for this sort of idea too. Symmetrical balance is fine, logical and makes for an easy buy in to a fantasy world, but I do like making good powerful, but hard and making evil weaker, nasty.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I wrote that based on DF's version of Holy Powers, in which haing Social Stigma: Excommunicated has a supernatural effect. If the disadvantage isn't supernaturally meaninglful in your setting, then you'd need a different effect. It was intended as an example of an effect that would be more interesting and relevant than "negative holy water".

I really like your Corrupted Blood concept, but I wouldn't base the excommunication on an instant will roll. For some reason (and I'm just brainstorming with you here) I think that it should be a reaction roll sometime in the future.

Bear with me here, my poorly wrought opinions follow...

Becoming fouled by the Blood makes you unclean, certainly. If you willingly drink, bathe or annoint with the Blood in a ceremony that brings divine attention to what you are doing the excommunication IS instant.

However, Heaven is (fairly) merciful. While you will have a Bad Smell until you are purified, being splashed unwillingly won't screw you over right away, mostly because the Gods aren't watching you all the time. There are times when they are likely to pay attention though.

You need to make a reaction roll every time you are the subject of helpful Holy magic or you enter Holy ground until you are ritually purified. This reaction roll is modified by -1 for every time you have done either of those things before the ritual. The roll is further modified by -1 for each increment of time that goes by before the ritual. This second penalty can vary from god to god depending on how fire and brimstone they are.

On a very bad or bad result you are Excommunicated and must perform penance to get right with your god again. On a DISASTROUS result you count as Infernal until you get your penance, which will be much harder because now you have additional penalties to request the cleansing.

The cleansing ritual for a person should be a full baptism in Holy Water with an exorcism with the target's stats standing in for the possessing spirit. The Blood has wormed its way through the victim's body and insinuated its foulness into the target's fears and dark secrets. The victim must be physically tested and must struggle against his own subconscious to throw off the corruption.

Physical things defiled by the Blood are immediately desecrated and must be burned and replaced. Magical and holy items test against their Power to avoid such a fate, but the Blood (which is hard to make and doesn't keep well) could possibly end the sanctity of anything Holy.

That stuff is NASTY. It is like bottling up murder, rape and heresy and using it to poison people with raw sin. It should be a hardship to make and shouldn't last more than a week before it becomes rotten and useless.

Anyway, that is something I would consider doing with the stuff. My evil has to cheat for its advantages after all while the results might be impressive, the treachery and preparation involved should be distinctly arcane and unfair compared to what Good requires.

Being Good is a hard job, but comes with a nice benefits package and a steady supernatural paycheck.

Being Evil might be an easy job to get and doesn't ask much more than "Do whatever you need to do," but the rewards take a long time to realize and they don't often last. There is a reason why ancient evils are ancient... it takes forever to become a player.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Stone Dog

I really like your Corrupted Blood concept, but I wouldn't base the excommunication on an instant will roll. For some reason (and I'm just brainstorming with you here) I think that it should be a reaction roll sometime in the future.

Meh. It was just something I brainstormed up in order to compare it to "negative holy water". Whatever you do, you'd want to give it instantly relevant combat effects, so that it'd make sense as a grenade.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Stone Dog

I really go for this sort of idea too. Symmetrical balance is fine, logical and makes for an easy buy in to a fantasy world, but I do like making good powerful, but hard and making evil weaker, nasty.

Actually that supports a lot of portrayals of Good and Evil better than simple symmetry. Evil people would go after political power or hunt down doomsday weapons because they can't rely on their mystical backing to overpower the forces of Good (or at least don't trust it enough to find out).

[Stone Dog]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Meh. It was just something I brainstormed up in order to compare it to "negative holy water". Whatever you do, you'd want to give it instantly relevant combat effects, so that it'd make sense as a grenade.

I see your point, yes. Bad Smell is a good one, but instead of Excommunicated (which really is the part I dislike) how about it makes you a focus for free-floating Evil? It makes flies come swarming around you for combat penalties for everything that is not a demon or undead in your hex (Affliction, Far Sighted?) and demons react to you as if they were starving and you had been basted with delicious sauce?

So they come up to you for grapples and try to bite chunks out of your body, while flies crawl in your eyes and nose and make it hard to keep them from doing just that.

I was going to say that my evil cultists might just throw acid if they want a damaging grenade, but turning PCs into buffets might just be better.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Stone Dog

I see your point, yes. Bad Smell is a good one, but instead of Excommunicated (which really is the part I dislike) how about it makes you a focus for free-floating Evil? It makes flies come swarming around you for combat penalties for everything that is not a demon or undead in your hex (Affliction, Far Sighted?) and demons react to you as if they were starving and you had been basted with delicious sauce?

Whatever, doesn't matter, as long as it's not just "negative holy water".

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by b-dog

Holy water should cause damage to demons and undead according to old school dungeon delving.

Nah, be more creative. holy water is sanctified. Using it allows a Good Cleric in an evil temple to have access to his spells for 1d minutes if taken outside the evil zone, 1d turns if taken inside.

(This deals with a practicality flaw in DF. Old school clerics could cast spells in enemy strongholds. DF clerics cannot do this period. It seems rather contrary to the genre to deny a cleric spells at the place where his spells are most needed.)

Offensively Splashing Holy Water on any Evil foe, puts the Foe effectively in a sanctity region for the same period. Great way to neutralize the mad High Priestess of the God of Murder's ability to throw spells.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

Nah, be more creative. holy water is sanctified. Using it allows a Good Cleric in an evil temple to have access to his spells for 1d minutes if taken outside the evil zone, 1d turns if taken inside.

(This deals with a practicality flaw in DF. Old school clerics could cast spells in enemy strongholds. DF clerics cannot do this period.

Well, usually they can. I mean if someone was a Satanist priest (with GURPS clerical spells) his spells would work (without a relic) everywhere on Earth except The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, a chunk of Bethlehem, the Dome of the Rock and Mount Sinai. In regular churches he'd be at a -5. And in just plain castles belonging to Christians, he'd only be penalized if he happened to be standing right in the still regularly used chapel.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Stone Dog

Irrelevant. Quality comes from many sources, not the zealous mimicry of something popular.

It is, yes. That is the one objectively correct thing you have said about GURPS.
In your opinion, which is hardly universal. A great deal of D&D's marvelous flavor that you admire so also came from the people around him like Arneson and the other players in the group. Gygax was the big name and deserves a great deal of praise, but don't make the mistake of thinking that D&D was all his work. It was not. For example, the Dungeon as a concept was Arneson's and tomb raiding in fantasy gaming would be very different if it wasn't for him.

Which would be very unethical on the part of SJG and unworthy of their reputation and skill. Copying the work of somebody else and publishing it is something we call "cheating" at best and "plagiarism" at worst.

You want to make your DF a clone of AD&D? There is nothing wrong with that. Hell, we'll basically be pretty glad to help in most cases. You'd get better results from the forum if you stop tagging every thread [DF] regardless of what your actual question is about* and quit this One True Way attitude that you have going.

The reason I think that DF should be a GURPS version of AD&D is because there are a lot of adventures and settings for this and DF has no setting or any adventures so the quirky stuff doesn't really help as much. The quirky stuff can be used to spice up an AD&D setting though but I think the priority should be making laying the ground work for conversion of AD&D stuff. It doesn't need to be exact but close enough to be easily plugged in. FREX: Mind Flayer could be a Mind Blaster; a Frost Giant could be an Ice Giant; a Purple Worm could be a Violet Worm etc.