[DF] Holy water seems to have no purpose

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by ThomasSmith

Well if holy water makes zombies burn, does unholy water make paladins burn? They're like the zombies of team good!

Tasteless joking aside, seriously, what does unholy water hurt that an evil cleric is likely to encounter? It probably hurts angels, but if they're encountering angels, they're probably rethinking their line of work. It probably hurts good gods too, but if they're encountering good gods, they're out of time to rethink their line of work.

You know the saying. "Good Gods!" Yeah, that evil cleric is totally dead. Oh, hm. Maybe I didn't manage to put the tasteless joking aside.

Maybe the Evil Cleric should get supernatural charisma or intimidation of evil creatures like undead or demons so that he can turn them through fear rather than morally oppose power source.

[Kuroshima]

Maybe I've played too much Castlevania (No, I definitively have played too much Castlevania), but in my games, Holy Water burns (Burning damage) both undead and demons. It does 1d ex per dose, and persists on the floor for 10s, burning any such creature that enters the zone for the same damage as it did. If the demon/undead has Unkillable, Holy Water counts as an Achilles heel. Also, the zone is now considered Consecrated ground (Holy) while the water lasts, and all Demons/Undead have dread of Consecrated Ground. Consecrated Ground produced by Holy Water has no effect on Sanctity.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by ThomasSmith

Well if holy water makes zombies burn, does unholy water make paladins burn? They're like the zombies of team good!

No they are the equivalent of unholy warriors. No real zombie equivalent, but holy Allies could well be burned by unholy water.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by ThomasSmith

Well if holy water makes zombies burn, does unholy water make paladins burn? They're like the zombies of team good!

Tasteless joking aside, seriously, what does unholy water hurt that an evil cleric is likely to encounter? .

Unicorns. And yes, any kind of summonable Holy ally.

[Stone Dog]

Originally Posted by ThomasSmith

Well if holy water makes zombies burn, does unholy water make paladins burn? They're like the zombies of team good!

I would say no. Holy Water would only affect supernaturally Evil creatures like undead and demons and such. It does this through the blessings of clerical magic as well as water's natural symbolic purity and cleansing.

In my games I would go so far as to say that there is no such thing as Unholy water. At least, not something as simple as just following the opposite of the Holy water instructions. You would need a fluid that is as naturally profane as water is pure. Truly polluted water might do it. Other possibilities would be demon bile or the blood of an un-blessed, suitably tormented infant. At any rate, it wouldn't be anything that you could reliably store.

Even if I had such a thing, I would use it as a power nullifier against Holy. It would never damage or truly hinder a being of Holy origin or power, but it could seriously blunt that creature's mystical edge.

"Everything has to be twisted before it's any use to us. We fight under
cruel disadvantages. Nothing is naturally on our side." -Screwtape

[zorg]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I will say that to me the AD&D DM guide is something that should be copied because it is the standard for all dungeon delving games. This book should have all of its ideas taken and then digested and then fully converted to GURPS rules in such a way that GURPS DF plays like AD&D. The same should be done for the Monster Manual and Unearthed Arcana.

Ripping off AD&D is not only legally problematic, but also not quite the point of DF. DF isn't supposed to play like AD&D, it's supposed to enable Dungeon Crawling.

Only AD&D plays like AD&D. No one is going to play Gurps - instead of AD&D - while hoping that Gurps is going to play like another game. That's somewhat pointless.

Originally Posted by Stone Dog

I very much hope that SJG continues to make something familiar yet fresh and distinctly GURPSy in the DF line and never tries to make itself into any sort of D&D conversion, clone, copy or anything more derivative than the homage it already is.

I agree.

[sir_pudding]

I think it really depends on how you treat moral polarity in your setting. "Unholy" water as a concept though is fairly absurd, it's either blessed water by an opposed faith (as holy to them as it yours is to you) or it's an artifact of absolute evil, for which as Stone Dog points out, the traditional symbolic uses of water are inappropriate.

In my current occasional DF game, which is more Sword & Sorcery pagan than Tolkienic Christian, the enemy faith isn't absolutely evil, but merely somewhat corrupt. They have holy water, the same as everybody else, probably, that has the same effects on demons and undead. They are just merely more likely to have summoned those demons and undead in the first place.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think it really depends on how you treat moral polarity in your setting. "Unholy" water as a concept though is fairly absurd, it's either blessed water by an opposed faith (as holy to them as it yours is to you) or it's an artifact of absolute evil, for which as Stone Dog points out, the traditional symbolic uses of water are inappropriate.

In my current occasional DF game, which is more Sword & Sorcery pagan than Tolkienic Christian, the enemy faith isn't absolutely evil, but merely somewhat corrupt. They have holy water, the same as everybody else, probably, that has the same effects on demons and undead. They are just merely more likely to have summoned those demons and undead in the first place.

Unholy water is listed in the Dngeon Masters guide and I think it would be fair for Evil clerics to have the same things holy clerics do.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by b-dog

Unholy water is listed in the Dngeon Masters guide and I think it would be fair for Evil clerics to have the same things holy clerics do.

The unholy clerics certainly have some things holy clerics don't (like zombies). But there is one use for holy water that probably means it deserves a counterpart. Holy water is what you pour on unholy altars to deconsecrate. (Doubtless there are other ways, but holy water is quick and that can be important.) So unholy clerics probably pack something equivalent, even if it's more like slime or urine than actual water.

[Mathulhu]

Holy stuff is about hurting very bad things, Unholy stuff is about hurting everyone.
Maybe unholy water could just be strong acid. I imagine an alter would stop being consecrated after you have etched an evil rune into its surface.