[DF] Why not have some pure "bad guy" races in DF?

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by trooper6

We see the entire animal kingdom as resources to be used as needed. Are are evil?

Well, certainly -- as we are part of the animal kingdom -- those who do, are.

OTOH, most humans I know don't see the entire animal kingdom -- or even the entire non-human part of it -- that way.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Heck, many wars amount to killing people for resources and we often don't consider killing soldiers within the confines of war evil.

Starting an aggressive war is generally viewed as evil, though.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Well, certainly -- as we are part of the animal kingdom -- those who do, are.

OTOH, most humans I know don't see the entire animal kingdom -- or even the entire non-human part of it -- that way.

I know a lot of people who just don't have much of a problem with animals being killed and eaten just because they are tasty. Or who buy fur coats. Or ivory objects of art. Or who eat whale meat. Or whatever.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Starting an aggressive war is generally viewed as evil, though.

Who started it is manipulatable. The Bush doctrine is all about preemptive war...and many people in the US didn't consider either Bush or his doctrine evil...but important to keep America safe and free from the terrorists. Heck, lots of folks don't even really worry too much about torturing suspects if it keeps us free. Certainly, they don't consider that evil.

"I invaded you--but you made me do it...you really started it."

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Who started it is manipulatable.

Sure, responsibility for any act may be obfuscated, but that doesn't change the fact that certain things are widely seen as evil.

The Bush doctrine is all about preemptive war...

Actually, no, its out preventive war; the difference is rather important. And lots of people see the Bush doctrine as evil.

Heck, lots of folks don't even really worry too much about torturing suspects if it keeps us free. Certainly, they don't consider that evil.

Sure, lots of people disagree on what is evil, both in general terms and in how those general terms apply to specific circumstances.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Not really relevant to the discussion, but it's another rather dumb cliche that bothers me.

If they need the Four Shards of the Shattered MacGuffin to perform the ritual, and your goal is only to prevent the ritual from being performed, you only need ONE piece to win.

Right. And all you need to do to get that one piece is to get to it first and to protect it forever.

Usually you're playing catchup to Them to stop them from getting all the pieces, or once you get a piece They send agents after you to steal it, or maybe the world is safe for now but how do you know your descendants will continue to keep it safe? Also, it's really much better if They have as few of the pieces as possible - just in case - which means getting/saving the other pieces from Them, particularly if you want the MacGuffin for your own ritual.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Someone you can negotiate with.

that does not work. there are adult humans I can't negotiate with.

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

Since you answered with "Monkey Brains", why don't you give the one you were operating off of?

Sorry you the one that want to be convinced, I can't do that without what know what you accept for sapient.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by trooper6

We see the entire animal kingdom as resources to be used as needed. Are we evil?

Most RPGs (indeed, most cultural media) are relentlessly anthropocentric, so of course we're not evil. We're just doing what it takes to survive (or more).

Now, in Bunnies and Burrows...

[smurf]

The 'evil' stance is merely a short cut to blame X for everything. In real life these could be called racist etc and really 'evil' is just a short cut for a black and white world.

Consider all Christians are good, therefore all nonchristians are bad/evil.

Even in LoTR, which I think is an anology of modernity (will keep this separate for now), the Orcs are evil, we are not told why except that they are mad 'technocrats' who want to destroy the forest/environment.

However the notion of the binary leads to a contradiction:

Nemesis the Warlock
vs Torquemada

Both think each other are evil and both think they are good.

Later in the story Purity Brown realises that her ally, Nemesis, is no different to Torquemade... ie they are both 'evil'.

Of course in the classic DF setting "are they evil" question can be circumvented.

The GM needs to reply, no those Orcs are not doing any evil yet, they are just fishing. However the Paladin must wait until the Orcs to do evil before he strikes!

The

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

Trolls were actually complicated in Scandinavian folklore; they were a bit more complicated than "likes to eat people".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls

The Vitterfolk would capture humans to use as slaves, or at least as prisoners amongst them; that's about the worst you can expect (as well as steal your food and spoil your beer!) But they're a bit more complicated than you're making them out to be.

As for the ultimate answer to why no "pure" evil monsters? I think it's because society is moving away from that kind of perspective as a whole. To be honest, the idea of a race being "innately" evil, and their children being "innately" evil (would you kill a Hobgoblin kid? If so, you're already touching on what makes the concept disturbing), is rather reminiscent of the ideas of a race being "superior" to another, or another race being "inferior", thanks to genetics.

You could have races that are in such competition for resources that the effect is really genocide out of it. Such a situation it would be hard to classify one as good or evil, but if it is a fight for survival then it makes sense.

You just need to have resources stretched enough for it to be essentially a choice between a human child and the hobgoblin child, or make the non humans alien enough that they are trying to change the world so that they can live in it instead of humans.