[DF] Why not have some pure "bad guy" races in DF?

b-dog · 02-27-2010, 05:27 PM

I have been thinking about the old school D&D and how they had bad guy races such ogres, trolls, gnolls, trolls, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins etc. These races were nasty and evil on the whole; although there were exceptions who were not eviland possibly even good. I just think these races could have been created by evil gods or maybe were corrupted faerie races or whatever, who knows. I mean in folk-lore a bugbear is an evil faerie and goblins are mischievious and malicious faeries. Trolls and ogres liked to eat people. And orcs who were created by Tolkien were considered an evil race or at least very hateful and nasty.

I mean if you want more complicated races then maybe lizardmen, coleopterans, cat-folk and the like would be races that battle over resourses and territory with humanity and they would have a logical social structure. So there would be enough of those kinds of races already so why not have some that are just a bad guy race?

Evil Roy Slade · 02-27-2010, 05:32 PM

Why not? Good question.

Lonewulf · 02-27-2010, 05:33 PM

Trolls were actually complicated in Scandinavian folklore; they were a bit more complicated than "likes to eat people".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls

The Vitterfolk would capture humans to use as slaves, or at least as prisoners amongst them; that's about the worst you can expect (as well as steal your food and spoil your beer!) But they're a bit more complicated than you're making them out to be.

As for the ultimate answer to why no "pure" evil monsters? I think it's because society is moving away from that kind of perspective as a whole. To be honest, the idea of a race being "innately" evil, and their children being "innately" evil (would you kill a Hobgoblin kid? If so, you're already touching on what makes the concept disturbing), is rather reminiscent of the ideas of a race being "superior" to another, or another race being "inferior", thanks to genetics.

Also, it's fun to make the evil monsters look, from their own perspective, to actually be rather sympathetic and understandable. It also, I would argue, makes for better (or at least more in-depth and complicated) storytelling. It's easy to invent a bogeyman; it's harder to make the bogeyman likable.

panton41 · 02-27-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

To be honest, the idea of a race being "innately" evil, and their children being "innately" evil (would you kill a Hobgoblin kid? If so, you're already touching on what makes the concept disturbing), is rather reminiscent of the ideas of a race being "superior" to another, or another race being "inferior", thanks to genetics.

I've considered making a dungeon contain [bad race of the week] women, children, elderly, invalids, etc. and see how the players react. A Knight/Fighter/Warrior might reply along the vein of "How can you shoot women and children?" / "Simple, don't lead them as much!" but a Holy Warrior/Paladin or Cleric or just a decent person might react differently. It might actually make for a decent game.

b-dog · 02-27-2010, 06:15 PM

On the other hand why not make Shoggoths have real motivations like protecting their children and the elderly? Or demons who really feel that they only wanted independance of thought and because of that they were imprisoned in Hell? I guess in DF then these kinds of monsters would lose their coolness as bad guys and would instead be something that could be reasoned with. I think that is one reason I have always like the goblinoid races because they really didn't understand much besides force and brutality. It makes them different than "natural" races that like lizard-men.

Lonewulf · 02-27-2010, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog

Or demons who really feel that they only wanted independance of thought and because of that they were imprisoned in Hell?

I have a setting idea where this is entirely true. That demons are the "rebels", and are actually sympathetic characters.

I'm not sure how this hurts the setting.

Quote:

I guess in DF then these kinds of monsters would lose their coolness as bad guys and would instead be something that could be reasoned with.

"Coolness as bad guys"? You're kidding, right? I don't agree with that at all.

And humans, who are one of the best examples of a "neutral" race, can always be reasoned with? I think I can pull several examples out of history where that's not true.

b-dog · 02-27-2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

I have a setting idea where this is entirely true. That demons are the "rebels", and are actually sympathetic characters.

I'm not sure how this hurts the setting.

"Coolness as bad guys"? You're kidding, right?

And humans, who are one of the best examples of a "neutral" race, can always be reasoned with? I think I can pull several examples out of history where that's not true.

There are already a lot of neutral races so why not some evil ones?

b-dog · 02-27-2010, 06:29 PM

Maybe the goblinoid races are like the Chtorr who destroy the natural environment by turning it into a world unfit for other races. Or maybe they are like the force of chaos where if they dominate then the world becomes unlivable. But in any case they were evil to begin with.

Lonewulf · 02-27-2010, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b-dog

There are already a lot of neutral races so why not some evil ones?

I'm just saying that your "Coolness" argument doesn't hold water with me.

I found the Scanvinavian trolls to be far cooler than "They just go around eating people, the end" version. Some of the most successful fiction tends to avoid the "they eat people 'cuz" thinking.

(I also find some "re imaginings" of mythology sickening for that same thing; such as people that think that Hades was like Satan, so he should be the bad guy, because they don't quite get that Greek Myth had a different view on morality and the underworld: Just see Clash of the Titans for an example)

b-dog · 02-27-2010, 06:43 PM

I think that evil races need to be played properly to be effective. Orcs will bully and brutalize the weaker untill a stronger being comes along and then they will cower and plead fro mercy. They do not kill the forces of good because they hate good. They could care less about good or evil, they just find the kindly and nice easier to be nasty to.

Evil does not need to attack good, it just needs to do evil things. Good is the one that will attack evil because good is less tolerant of nasty behavior. This is one area where fantasy games get it backwards. Evil s just having a blast and the good guys are the ones trying to stop it.

02-27-2010, 05:27 PM	#1
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	[DF] Why not have some pure "bad guy" races in DF? I have been thinking about the old school D&D and how they had bad guy races such ogres, trolls, gnolls, trolls, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins etc. These races were nasty and evil on the whole; although there were exceptions who were not eviland possibly even good. I just think these races could have been created by evil gods or maybe were corrupted faerie races or whatever, who knows. I mean in folk-lore a bugbear is an evil faerie and goblins are mischievious and malicious faeries. Trolls and ogres liked to eat people. And orcs who were created by Tolkien were considered an evil race or at least very hateful and nasty. I mean if you want more complicated races then maybe lizardmen, coleopterans, cat-folk and the like would be races that battle over resourses and territory with humanity and they would have a logical social structure. So there would be enough of those kinds of races already so why not have some that are just a bad guy race?

02-27-2010, 05:32 PM	#2
Evil Roy Slade Join Date: Oct 2007	Re: [DF] Why not have some pure "bad guy" races in DF? Why not? Good question.

02-27-2010, 05:33 PM	#3
Lonewulf Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: San Antonio, TX	Re: [DF] Why not have some pure "bad guy" races in DF? Trolls were actually complicated in Scandinavian folklore; they were a bit more complicated than "likes to eat people". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls The Vitterfolk would capture humans to use as slaves, or at least as prisoners amongst them; that's about the worst you can expect (as well as steal your food and spoil your beer!) But they're a bit more complicated than you're making them out to be. As for the ultimate answer to why no "pure" evil monsters? I think it's because society is moving away from that kind of perspective as a whole. To be honest, the idea of a race being "innately" evil, and their children being "innately" evil (would you kill a Hobgoblin kid? If so, you're already touching on what makes the concept disturbing), is rather reminiscent of the ideas of a race being "superior" to another, or another race being "inferior", thanks to genetics. Also, it's fun to make the evil monsters look, from their own perspective, to actually be rather sympathetic and understandable. It also, I would argue, makes for better (or at least more in-depth and complicated) storytelling. It's easy to invent a bogeyman; it's harder to make the bogeyman likable. __________________ She's like the sunrise Outshines the moon at night Precious like starlight She'll bring in a murderous prize ~Blind Guardian My Writing.com Last edited by Lonewulf; 02-27-2010 at 05:37 PM.

02-27-2010, 06:15 PM	#5
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	Re: [DF] Why not have some pure "bad guy" races in DF? On the other hand why not make Shoggoths have real motivations like protecting their children and the elderly? Or demons who really feel that they only wanted independance of thought and because of that they were imprisoned in Hell? I guess in DF then these kinds of monsters would lose their coolness as bad guys and would instead be something that could be reasoned with. I think that is one reason I have always like the goblinoid races because they really didn't understand much besides force and brutality. It makes them different than "natural" races that like lizard-men.

02-27-2010, 06:29 PM	#8
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	Re: [DF] Why not have some pure "bad guy" races in DF? Maybe the goblinoid races are like the Chtorr who destroy the natural environment by turning it into a world unfit for other races. Or maybe they are like the force of chaos where if they dominate then the world becomes unlivable. But in any case they were evil to begin with.

02-27-2010, 06:43 PM	#10
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	Re: [DF] Why not have some pure "bad guy" races in DF? I think that evil races need to be played properly to be effective. Orcs will bully and brutalize the weaker untill a stronger being comes along and then they will cower and plead fro mercy. They do not kill the forces of good because they hate good. They could care less about good or evil, they just find the kindly and nice easier to be nasty to. Evil does not need to attack good, it just needs to do evil things. Good is the one that will attack evil because good is less tolerant of nasty behavior. This is one area where fantasy games get it backwards. Evil s just having a blast and the good guys are the ones trying to stop it.