[MA] Spinning Attack and Rapid Strike

[ismenis]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Also, it should be possible to launch a rapid strike that is two spinning attacks. These should be treated differently from a spinning attack and a regular attack to represent the greater risk that such an attack would pose.

In RAW there's nothing concerning how two spinning attacks as RS being riskier than one spinning attack and a regular attack, maybe it could be house-ruled that if both portions of a RS are spinning attacks, they have to be made either using one arm and one leg, or two arms. This way the defense option restrictions accumulate, meaning that you either end up only having one arm to parry with at -3 while not able to dodge, or cannot parry with arms/hand held weapons at all and defending at -3.

[Agramer]

Rapid strike (Visually) is not necessarily 2 different distinct attacks. It can be just one move,like cutting someone with sword and than puling blade across his body....it would look to naked eye as single attack,but in game mechanics that are 2 different attacks.

I dont see why same couldnt be used for Spinning attack.

If you use Spinning attack as rapid strike you get -3 for each attack(as Trained by Master/Weapon Master) or -6 to each as Normal human.

-6 penalty to feint and to attack seems like high enough price to "pay" without adding any additional penalties.

Such Spinning rapid strike could also be 2 successive fast kicks during pivoting with each leg/arm/weapon,as seen to be executed by many realistic martial artists(though rarely in competitions;more often in demonstrations or movies).

Also Spinning attack aint Feint ... it is specific technique that combines feint and attack and bonus/penalty is for each attack separately.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Agramer

Rapid strike (Visually) is not necessarily 2 different distinct attacks. It can be just one move,like cutting someone with sword and than puling blade across his body....it would look to naked eye as single attack,but in game mechanics that are 2 different attacks.

Very true. Another reason why I believe in allowing Rapid Strike in combination with just about any other maneuver. Also why I think that there are plenty of attacks that can follow up a Spinning Attack that shouldn't benefit from the defense penalties. FREX, spinning knife thrust + knife twist. Why would the knife twist benefit from the deceptive qualities of the spinning attack? The defender knows where it is.

Originally Posted by Agramer

-6 penalty to feint and to attack seems like high enough price to "pay" without adding any additional penalties.

So? Not every combination of combat options is as advantageous as every other. Telegraphic Spinning Attacks is one example of a combination that is never worth it from a strictly gamist approach, but is frequently used in real life.

Originally Posted by Agramer

Such Spinning rapid strike could also be 2 successive fast kicks during pivoting with each leg/arm/weapon,as seen to be executed by many realistic martial artists(though rarely in competitions;more often in demonstrations or movies).

I think if you want to get the benefits of Spinning Kick twice in a single round, that's fine. But it should involve two roles against Spinning Kick, each with a chance of back-firing and increasing your opponents defenses.

There are far too many possible combinations of attacks and possible ways to represent a Rapid Strike, so say that both attacks in a Rapid Strike should get the Spinning Attack bonuses and penalties unless both of them are (mechanically) Spinning Attacks.

[EDIT] Fixed it where the quote showed up wrong.

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I think if you want to get the benefits of Spinning Kick twice in a single round, that's fine. But it should involve two roles against Spinning Kick, each with a chance of back-firing and increasing your opponents defenses.

Thats what I said in my last post.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Agramer

Thats what I said in my last post.

Sorry, missed that part.

[ismenis]

Originally Posted by Agramer

If you use Spinning attack as rapid strike you get -3 for each attack(as Trained by Master/Weapon Master) or -6 to each as Normal human.

-6 penalty to feint and to attack seems like high enough price to "pay" without adding any additional penalties.

Didn't think about actual game balance when I wrote my post. I guess you are right about the penalty. When I saw the original question I just came up with a house rule on the spot without thinking too much about it.

Originally Posted by aesir23

...Telegraphic Spinning Attacks is one example of a combination that is never worth it from a strictly gamist approach, but is frequently used in real life.

Actually, this being a direct quote from Dr. Kromm, "Telegraphic Attack explicitly forbids you from claiming defense penalties due to Deceptive Attack, feint, and Riposte, so it stands to reason that the feint built into Spinning Attack is also off-limits" (I guess Counter Attack is OK because it's a fixed -2? Quite useful if you have put at least 3 pts. in the technique). Plus it's actually quite munchkin to combine the two, because you get +4 in the QC in combat skill compared to the +2 to your opponent.

[bea_bumble]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Very true. Another reason why I believe in allowing Rapid Strike in combination with just about any other maneuver. Also why I think that there are plenty of attacks that can follow up a Spinning Attack that shouldn't benefit from the defense penalties. FREX, spinning knife thrust + knife twist. Why would the knife twist benefit from the deceptive qualities of the spinning attack? The defender knows where it is.[EDIT] Fixed it where the quote showed up wrong.

Hmm, I'm not sure. It all happens in a single second, though. If someone spins when attacking you, all of their attacks during that maneuver will use the rhythm of that spin. Or maybe not? Others will disagree, but this still makes sense to me, anyway... And it requires less rolling. ;) Just to throw it out there, I would argue from experience that EVERYTHING is harder to do immediately after a flashy spinning attack--it throws your whole center of gravity! Even kicks that you normally could perform facilely are more difficult until you regain your balance! This is why it makes sense to me that the combatant must roll against spinning attack, rather than normal weapon skill, to hit on both attacks.

But the knife twist example seems odd to me... I know that multiple attacks can be "reskinned" as a twist of a weapon, but it is a purely aesthetic choice after the fact, isn't it? "If I hit with the second attack, make it a twist to finish them off!" After all, this is a twist of a knife that is already in your opponent's gut... But you have a chance to miss without any bonus, and they have an opportunity to parry or block without any penalty... Which don't really seem like conditions that represent the most likely outcomes of someone attempting to twist a knife in a victim's body. If the mechanics actually accounted for a twist, rather than allowing a successful attack to be described as one, wouldn't it be something more like the natural biter trait in DF, where you use an attack maneuver just to deal damage to something you already have in your jaws, without rolls to hit or defend?

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by bea_bumble

But the knife twist example seems odd to me... I know that multiple attacks can be "reskinned" as a twist of a weapon, but it is a purely aesthetic choice after the fact, isn't it? "If I hit with the second attack, make it a twist to finish them off!" After all, this is a twist of a knife that is already in your opponent's gut... But you have a chance to miss without any bonus, and they have an opportunity to parry or block without any penalty... Which don't really seem like conditions that represent the most likely outcomes of someone attempting to twist a knife in a victim's body. If the mechanics actually accounted for a twist, rather than allowing a successful attack to be described as one, wouldn't it be something more like the natural biter trait in DF, where you use an attack maneuver just to deal damage to something you already have in your jaws, without rolls to hit or defend?

This was an example in the MA box 'What is a Rapid Strike'. I can't give you a page number because IDHMBWM. I think the main point is that not everything you do with the knife is going to do damage, and any successful defense is going to pull the knife out before it can cause any more damage.

Similarly you can hit someone with your sword, but it's fairly simple to knock the blade away before he can follow up with a draw cut.

That said, I agree that this could benefit from rules of it's own. Perhaps a penalty to defend against the second attack (-1 or -2) mitigated by the fact that if the first attack misses or is successfully defended against, the second fails automatically.

[Agramer]

Originally Posted by aesir23

That said, I agree that this could benefit from rules of it's own. Perhaps a penalty to defend against the second attack (-1 or -2) mitigated by the fact that if the first attack misses or is successfully defended against, the second fails automatically.

Those are combinations

MA p80,109

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Agramer

Those are combinations

MA p80,109

touche'

damned minimum character restrictions