Dodging bullets

[Langy]

What made dodge for avoiding bullets more workable for me was the 'can't dodge under 4 or 5 yars' rule... can't find it now though! Does anyone remember the reference?

Shouldn't it be easier to dodge a bullet fired from up close as opposed to a bullet fired a dozen or hundred yards away? From far away, a small alteration in trajectory results in a much larger change in where the bullet hits, which means a gunman can correct for you moving out of the way much easier than if you were up close.

Remember that if the gunman actually had you in his sights when he fired, it doesn't matter if he was five yards away or a hundred yards away - you're going to get hit, because bullets just travel that bloody fast.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Edges

They only get the extra Aim bonus if they've had plenty of time to aim. This is why the the fashion has become, if somebody aims a gun at you, charge him right away.

That's okay. In the real world, that's what they teach too. Well, apart from the real instructions being "don't ever be caught in that situation, but if you do...".

If you manage to charge before the gunman has gotten his gun out and pointed at you, it's not implausible that you manage to slam him before he hits you.

Originally Posted by Edges

Also, you've lost all the aim bonuses in the second turn of firing.

True. But the PC has no way of knowing whether the gunman has skill 10, 12 or 20. He doesn't know if he needs those bonuses to hit with all bullets or not.

Unless he's really sure that the gunman plans to murder him and not just talk to him, charging seems foolhardy to me.

Originally Posted by Edges

This is why I wrote up the example. Shooting when the target is in your face is only your second attack. You only had less than a one in four of hitting in the first second and now it's even worse. After that second attack, it's a new turn for MR. Ice-water and he's got lots of options.

Unless he's an expert martial artist trained to deal with armed opponents (not all that common in the real world), his options aren't all that great. The skill 10-12 of Brawling and skill 8-10 in Judo that a realistic soldier probably has are not going to be coming off great against skill 12 in Guns.

If the Man with Ice-Water in his Veins is has unarmed fighting skills in the high teens in addition to his enormous brass cojones, maybe he deserves a good chance. He is, after all, one of the few people in the world who have both the guts and the skills to act like a real life action hero.

Originally Posted by Edges

I like your points about AoA and Telegraphic. I've been following your argument on the execution thread. These bonuses will bring it back to needing to dodge all three shots. But that was still only a 1 in 4 situation and with another +2 to dodge from Telegraphic and the inability for the shooter to defend, I'd put my money on the target.

Given equal starting points, I'd put my money on the shooter, no question. Only if the gunman is a relatively normal person facing a man without fear and with some extraordinarily rare skills does it even begin to approach equality.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

Dodge against bullets really is more difficult than Dodge against a baseball bat. GURPS Dodge basically means positioning yourself such that you are difficult to hit. Such is about as easy/difficult to pull off against a melee attack as against a ranged one. Actually getting out of the way is a Dodge plus Retreat, which you cannot do against a ranged attack.

You can Dodge and Drop for the same bonus. Falling down is generally worse than going back a yard, of course.

[Kalzazz]

I would definitely suggest wearing body armor

Even cheap, light, concealable body armor can take a lot of the sting out of pistol fire

That said, if its a 12 skill mortal vs a normalish PC, Id expect this not to be even a fight, the gun wielding enemy is completely owned from the start

A dozen enemies with modded G11s and underbarrel grenade launchers, body armor, and magic ammo is a good starting point for a serious fight, though that was the first planned encounter of the session

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You can Dodge and Drop for the same bonus. Falling down is generally worse than going back a yard, of course.

Indeed.

Dodge and Drop to cover, absolutely.

Dodge and Drop so that you are now lying at the feet of the gunman... well, you're probably just delaying the inevitable. Not that this is a bad thing, of course. Life really is nothing but the process of delaying the inevitable as long as you can. ;)

[Kalzazz]

Well, maybe you next can try to grab his legs or something

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Well, maybe you next can try to grab his legs or something

The way I GM, you can always try. But be prepared for the odds to be against you. ;)

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If you manage to charge before the gunman has gotten his gun out and pointed at you, it's not implausible that you manage to slam him before he hits you.

Of course. But we were never talking about that. I think it was clear from the start that the target was charging after one second of aim. And according to your own calculations (minus the additional aim bonuses) it would be quite hard to hit.

Originally Posted by Icelander

True. But the PC has no way of knowing whether the gunman has skill 10, 12 or 20. He doesn't know if he needs those bonuses to hit with all bullets or not.

I don't think the PCs care what the guy's gun skill is. They rely on their huge dodge. After AoD and Feverish, they have 12 (average human), 14 (6 Sp+CR), or higher (exceptional). Some guys have Acrobatics to boot. According to your calculations, the shooter would have to be exceptional just to give the target a -2 to this roll.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Unless he's really sure that the gunman plans to murder him and not just talk to him, charging seems foolhardy to me.

I think that if someone aims a gun at you, it's safer to assume that they're willing to shoot. And if the odds are stacked in your favor, it's not foolhardy to charge.

But yes, as long as you're reasonably sure that the shooter isn't exceptional and/or you're willing to take a -2 to your fat dodge roll, why not have a chat before charging.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Unless he's an expert martial artist trained to deal with armed opponents (not all that common in the real world), his options aren't all that great. The skill 10-12 of Brawling and skill 8-10 in Judo that a realistic soldier probably has are not going to be coming off great against skill 12 in Guns.

The first time this came up in play, the PC had a Zap Glove from UT and a boxing skill. It went pretty well for the PC. But as it came up in different scenarios (both hypothetical and played), mêlée weapons and grappling were favored over no attack options at all. A grapple to the gun arm followed by a feverish dodge isn't flawless, but it's not too shabby. And a knife to the throat with all the fixins will do the job as well.

But this is beside the point. The point is, why is it so easy to dodge a bunch of gunshots?

Originally Posted by Icelander

If the Man with Ice-Water in his Veins is has unarmed fighting skills in the high teens in addition to his enormous brass cojones, maybe he deserves a good chance. He is, after all, one of the few people in the world who have both the guts and the skills to act like a real life action hero.

Play testing showed that unarmed fighting skills in the high teens were not necessary. No PC in the game had them and this trick was pulled off more than once. The PC didn't even really need to be that brave. They just needed to be smart enough to realize what the players know, that the odds were well in their favor.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Given equal starting points, I'd put my money on the shooter, no question. Only if the gunman is a relatively normal person facing a man without fear and with some extraordinarily rare skills does it even begin to approach equality.

In real life, I'd also put my money on the shooter, no question. But in a fantasy game that gives the average cab driver a 74.1% chance of dodging a bullet that was aimed from just a few yards away, the gunman's got his work cut out for him. Considering the numbers, it's the gunman who needs the extraordinarily rare skills to compare with a relatively normal PC.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Edges

In real life, I'd also put my money on the shooter, no question. But in a fantasy game that gives the average cab driver a 74.1% chance of dodging a bullet that was aimed from just a few yards away, .

Your math is suspect.

[Heygutt]

Originally Posted by Xplo

If you don't think firearms are particularly useful, don't use them when you play. Let the GM and/or other players use them instead. You might change your mind after that. :P

I was not saying firearms are useless, I just wanted to clarify how easy it is to dodge a shot.