Active defense debate o_Ô

[Mettius]

Originally Posted by Twyll

2- Changing the rules

Our group had, in 3rd Ed, been using the optional rule whereby the margin of success for attack rolls divided by 2 (rounded down) equals the defenders active defense penalty.

We've been discussing this topic as well, but looks like we decided to simply discard the new Deceptive Attack rules and stick with the above.

It plays very quickly, and solves the problem of excessive dodging (with high active defenses) and rewards characters with high skill. (Sure, you might say it penalizes highly skilled dodge characters, but not blocks or parries, as these are based on 1/2 block/weapon skill).


-Mettius

[Luther]

Mettius,

I think the rule you are talking about was dropped in G4 because it screws the rapid fire rules.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by sampo

PoweredbyCoffee

Here is a slight variation on your you lose fatigue every 10 seconds HR:

Loss of Fatigue via Exertion
Fatigue Points are Lost for Fighting in Combat.
After:(HT x 1) seconds of combat have elapsed the fighter loses: 1 + (Enc lvl) fatigue
After (HT x 5) more seconds of combat have elapsed the fighter again loses: 1 + (Enc lvl) fatigue
Every (HT x 5) seconds of combat thereafter the fighter rolls vs. HT* or loses: 1 fatigue (2 w crit fail)
*HT roll modifiers (-1 per minute of combat, - (Enc lvl) & - heat)

It may be of use to someone on the list. I've used this in my detail campaigns for years.

Note this was used in a 3rd edtion campaign, of the top of my head I can't think of anything that will need to be tweaked to use it in 4th ed

Don't for get a Heat will increass all these [total] numbers by 1.

[Twyll]

Ok let's feed this debate again. Here's an ultimate example of the system's limits about active defense rules.

1. Take an unnaturally fast super hero with Base Speed 12.x (twice as fast as average Joe)
2. Take a master fencer with Base Speed 6.x and Parry/Dodge 14 (precog dodge)

Though the master fencer is twice as slow as super fast hero, he still has the same odds of dodging/parrying super fast hero's blows nevermind how fast he is.

In my humble opinion, the chance of defending against an attack should always be relative (to the attack), leading to the use of Quick Contests, and not absolute as it is in the rules. Furthermore, parrying rules should take into account of Base Speed, wich would lead to defining a Base Defense used for all Active Defense, then modified by Skills or Advantages.

Clue:
- Base Defense = Floor(DX + HT)/2
- Dodge = Base Defense + Advantage Bonus
- Parry/Block = Base Defense + Skill Modifier
- Attack = Base Attribute + Skill Modifier

Example:
Joe has DX 12, HT 9 and a Sword Skill of +2 (DX related). We'll have:

Base Defense = 10
Dodge = 10
Sword Parry = 10 +2 = 12
Sword Attack = 12 + 2 = 14

If he's attacked in melee, he will use his Sword Parry of 12 in a quick constest against his attacker Weapon Attack to avoid being hit.

What do you say ?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Twyll

Ok let's feed this debate again. Here's an ultimate example of the system's limits about active defense rules.

1. Take an unnaturally fast super hero with Base Speed 12.x (twice as fast as average Joe)
2. Take a master fencer with Base Speed 6.x and Parry/Dodge 14 (precog dodge)

Though the master fencer is twice as slow as super fast hero, he still has the same odds of dodging/parrying super fast hero's blows nevermind how fast he is.

It feels to me, and you may correct me if I'm mistaken, that you're taking "Base Speed" to mean the same type of thing that it means in HERO system. In GURPS, Base Speed is an amalgam of how dextrous you are and how your body can cope with the strain of exertion (DX and HT). It is also your Move, more or less.

So your example of "twice as fast" is really "can run twice as fast" with some decent reaction times. it is emphatically NOT "takes two actions for every one for the Fencer," as for that you'd need to buy Altered Time Rate.

In my humble opinion, the chance of defending against an attack should always be relative (to the attack), leading to the use of Quick Contests...

What do you say ?

By and large I say "ick," but that's me.

I want to dissect your examples for a moment.

Let's take our master fencer, with DX 12 [40], HT12 [20]. Give him Combat Reflexes [15] and Enhanced Parry [10]. Parry will be 3+2+Fencing/2 and you want it at 14. That means you have Fencing at 18, not terribly high, really, but is DX+6.

Now, take your Speed Demon. This guy, in order to have Speed 12, will be on the order of DX24 [280] and HT24[140]. His basic ability to, say, punch (which defaults to DX with no special bonuses to damage or whatnot) is sufficient to make a Deceptive Attack at -5 to the other guy's defenses and still roll To Hit at 14-. Or spend a few points in a sword skill to get it at DX, and you get the same result. Speed Demon's basic Dodge is 3+12 = 15. Toss in Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Dodge (and at the point totals you've already spent, that seems pretty cheap) and you're at 17. So without working too hard, you can probably have Dodge 17, Parry 17. Again, at that point level, this is expected.

So when you say "Speed Guy can't touch Fencer" you're not really using the proper rules set. Speed Guy will roll vs 14- to hit, and Fencer will roll vs 9- to parry. Speedy will damage Fencer one time in three.

Now, you could do Speedy other ways. Just buying Altered Time Rate so you act twice for each time Fencer acts will allow you to be HT12, DX12, but act twice as often, which is, I think, what you're saying. In this case, for each of Fencer's actions, Speedy can make FOUR attacks (AoA for two attacks, twice). This will probably swamp out his defenses, which is what you'd expect.

[Twyll]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

In GURPS, Base Speed is an amalgam of how dextrous you are and how your body can cope with the strain of exertion (DX and HT). It is also your Move, more or less.

According to GURPS 4e (and GURPS 3 too i think) definition of Basic Speed is really a measure of reflexes and reaction speed, even if Base Move is derived from it. It is clearly written that 4e derived attributes are strictly independant from one another after initial compute, and that you can raise them with point separately. Move and Speed are initially computed from the same base, but from there they don't have anything to do with each other. For example you could build an realistic olympic sprinter with DX and HT 12, Basic Speed 6,0 and Move raised to 9,75 !

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

it is emphatically NOT "takes two actions for every one for the Fencer," as for that you'd need to buy Altered Time Rate.

No, I just said Speed Demon is far too fast for the fencer to give him a chance of defending. But you're right about Altered Time Rate I guess. I have to read this again.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Now, take your Speed Demon. This guy, in order to have Speed 12, will be on the order of DX24 [280] and HT24[140].

Wrong, as Basic Speed levels can now be bought at 5 points/0,25 increment (20 points per full level). Wich would give if we go for DX and HT 14 [80x2] plus Combat Reflexes [15], giving a Basic Speed of 8, 4 full additional levels to get to 12 for 80 points.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

So when you say "Speed Guy can't touch Fencer"

Hmm. I might want to say "Fencer can't touch Speed guy" as well as "Fencer can't dodge Speed guy". In fact poor Fencer should have no chance against speed guy (so don't try this with your player dudes ;)). Beautiful world, cruel world ^^.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Twyll

According to GURPS 4e (and GURPS 3 too i think) definition of Basic Speed is really a measure of reflexes and reaction speed, even if Base Move is derived from it. It is clearly written that 4e derived attributes are strictly independant from one another after initial compute, and that you can raise them with point separately. Move and Speed are initially computed from the same base, but from there they don't have anything to do with each other. For example you could build an realistic olympic sprinter with DX and HT 12, Basic Speed 6,0 and Move raised to 9,75 !

True enough. But as the only real game effect of Basic Speed is what order you go in combat, and your move. Move, in turn, affects Dodge (at least this is how things work with GCB with the 0.5.7 mods). What it does NOT do is make your actions, when controlled by basic DX or a Skill, happen better than your Stats or Skills would indicate.

I'd also quibble with your "Move and Speed are calculated from the same base, [etc]" line, as I think the closer interpretation is "Speed is computed from the base of DX/HT, and Move is computed from speed."

No, I just said Speed Demon is far too fast for the fencer to give him a chance of defending. But you're right about Altered Time Rate I guess. I have to read this again.

Done the way you want to do it (increase speed/move, rather than stats), Speedy will be aware of his opponents first (turn order) and capable of very fast movement (Move) which brings with it an associated high Dodge. He is not skillful or coordinated enough to turn this into a successful attack (his DX/Skills are not affected by the above stuff). This makes sense to me. An olympic sprinter will not outfence an olympic fencer, which is what the "Speed is all" argument suggests to me. On the other hand, "super-genius level DX and HT" (my DX/HT 24 example) DOES make sense to me as being able to outfox someone who is at DX+6 at Fencing. He has the DX to control his actions, and the HT to have his body withstand such rapid movement.

Wrong, as Basic Speed levels can now be bought at 5 points/0,25 increment (20 points per full level). Wich would give if we go for DX and HT 14 [80x2] plus Combat Reflexes [15], giving a Basic Speed of 8, 4 full additional levels to get to 12 for 80 points.

Not wrong. Just "can achieve higher speed in a more cost-effective way." Later on, I show that the more cost effective Speedster is less effective (as one would expect) than the way I did it. This isn't revelation--spending points on DX (LOTS of points) buys you a lot of performance.

Anyway:

DX is 20/level, HT is 10/level. So DX/HT 14 costs 120pts. This already is a nice start over DX/HT 12 Fencer. Combat Reflexes does not add to Basic Speed, it adds to Dodge [Active Defenses]. So Basic Speed is 7, get to 12 for 100 more points. Cheaper than what I put down, true, at 235pts instead of over 400. But also, FAR less capable in terms of actual ability. The DX14 means he can never really overcome the Fencer's high Parry rating. What you MIGHT allow is the old 3e optional rule that allows you to STEP an extra hex for every 8 full points of Move. So with Basic Speed 12, Move 16, and Combat Reflexes, you could get for 255 points Dodge 16 and Step of 2 (allowing you to get from out of a typical swordsman's range into close combat in one turn). If you could do this on the first turn of combat, before Fencer can take a Wait maneuver to impale you as you come in, you could leverage your higher Move/Speed to negate Fencer's ability to react.

However, if Fencer can Wait before you can do this, he gets to skewer you (or at least try) by winning a contest of his Skill (18, IIRC) against your...DX(?) of 14. If he wins (solid chances there), he can interrupt you; if not, your speed holds the day.

Hmm. I might want to say "Fencer can't touch Speed guy" as well as "Fencer can't dodge Speed guy". In fact poor Fencer should have no chance against speed guy (so don't try this with your player dudes ;)). Beautiful world, cruel world ^^.

Well, Speedy's high Dodge is more responsible for that than anything else. Fencer with Skill-18 can certainly inflict a -2 to Speedy's dodge by using Deceptive Attack. But Speedy's dodge is a unencumbered 16, so that doesn't help much. In this case, I think Fencer would need to go for a "real" Feint.

On the flip side, Speedy would do well, with his high Move, to eschew weapon use at all. He should probably invest in learning to do Slams properly, and try some sort of overrun attack. In fact, with Move 12-16, he might even be able to start at Range 3 (beyond even a long rapier's reach), and run around to Fencer's back, and slam from behind. I'm not sure to what extent this is allowed under the 4e rules, but it would be a plausible tactic for someone who's that fast.

So, net/net:

Fencer (DX/HT 12, Combat Reflexes, Fencing-18, Enhanced Parry) costs 104 points. Attack is with a weapon, probably Reach 2, at a skill of 18. Dodge is 10; Parry is 14. Some ability to reduce opponent's defenses via a -4 Deceptive Attack (-2 to defense). This will bury "mundane" opponents, but not be terribly effective on those with Defenses of 14+; still, better than nothing.

Pure Speedy (DX/HT 14, Combat Reflexes, Speed 12) costs 235 points. Attack is with fists or slams at DX (14). Dodge is 16. Parry is 11 unarmed, 9 with default use of an armed parry; best bet here is some arm protection and unarmed parry). No good way to Deceptive Attack without severe penalties to hit.

Dextrous Speedy (DX/HT 24 each, Combat Reflexes) costs 435 points. Attack is with darn near anything he wants; default weapon skills in the 18-20 range, natural fists at 24. For very moderate points (only a couple), he'll have Attack at 24, allowing a -5 deceptive attack--this is Bad News even against higher dodge folks. Retains the run-around and slam options of Pure Speedy. Defences are uniformly high: Dodge of 16, Parry of 16.

Based purely on point value, we shouldn't be surprised that Fencer is at a severe disadvantage in any of the above cases. You haven't postulated an equal contest here.

If we turn a 104 point Fencer into a 104 point Speedy, he's a lot less speedy!

105pt Speedy: Dx12, HT10, Speed 8, Move 9, Combat Reflexes. Dodge is 12, Parry with hands is 10. In this case, Fencer has a rather higher chance of kicking our ersatz speedy's ass.

[Romalar]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

What you MIGHT allow is the old 3e optional rule that allows you to STEP an extra hex for every 8 full points of Move. So with Basic Speed 12, Move 16, and Combat Reflexes, you could get for 255 points Dodge 16 and Step of 2 (allowing you to get from out of a typical swordsman's range into close combat in one turn). If you could do this on the first turn of combat, before Fencer can take a Wait maneuver to impale you as you come in, you could leverage your higher Move/Speed to negate Fencer's ability to react.

Just so you know, 4e already has a rule for Step with high Move. Your Step is always calculated as Move/10 rounded up. So, you'd just need Move 20 to get the longer Step. So, you could keep Basic Speed at 12, and add Move +8 [40], instead.

My players used this to good effect in a large battle with the Hawk Flight spell. For someone with no encumbrance, Hawk Flight gives Move 40, and therefore a Step of 4. This is very effective in combat, though it burns FP very fast.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Romalar

Just so you know, 4e already has a rule for Step with high Move. Your Step is always calculated as Move/10 rounded up. So, you'd just need Move 20 to get the longer Step. So, you could keep Basic Speed at 12, and add Move +8 [40], instead.

I don't have my books with me, is it round up or down?
If it's rounded up, you'd get the longer step at move 11.

[Romalar]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I don't have my books with me, is it round up or down?
If it's rounded up, you'd get the longer step at move 11.

Yeah, it's up, and you get the longer step at Move 11. I got confused for some reason.