Soldierly Honesty (and spies)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

That's mostly because they can get away with it, not because its mandatory. Most people aren't Honest, and that includes most police officers.

When the boss says it's necessary for the mission, and threatens to terminate your career [read: kill you to prevent further disclosure of governmental secrets) if you do not do it, it turns pretty much mandatory.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Molokh

When the boss says it's necessary for the mission, and threatens to terminate your career [read: kill you to prevent further disclosure of governmental secrets) if you do not do it, it turns pretty much mandatory.

It doesn't even have to be so overtly dire.
A "things just work differently in the real world" probably allows most illegal acts by most people in most situations. Horribly enough, in some cases, it's even true.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Molokh

When the boss says it's necessary for the mission, and threatens to terminate your career [read: kill you to prevent further disclosure of governmental secrets) if you do not do it, it turns pretty much mandatory.

Most police agencies even in corrupt polities do not in fact work that way. Being Honest may make it unlikely that you'll get promoted, and may make your work more dangerous, but it is still usually more about what you are allowed to do than what you must do. Suppose for example that you were a city cop in Moscow, then or now. Your boss isn't going to kill you for not beating confessions out of suspects. But your clearance rate might not be very good so you can forget getting promoted.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Most police agencies even in corrupt polities do not in fact work that way. Being Honest may make it unlikely that you'll get promoted, and may make your work more dangerous, but it is still usually more about what you are allowed to do than what you must do. Suppose for example that you were a city cop in Moscow, then or now. Your boss isn't going to kill you for not beating confessions out of suspects. But your clearance rate might not be very good so you can forget getting promoted.

If I'm a KGB worker, sure he will.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Molokh

If I'm a KGB worker, sure he will.

I repeat "Most police agences are not the KGB".

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by Molokh

If I'm a KGB worker, sure he will.

Even KGB agents had rules to follow.

To expand what I posted earlier, here's how Honest spies would work in my campaigns.

An Honest spy would be expected to follow the laws of his home country, allied countries, and neutral countries. If his home country has restrictions on what espionage agents are allowed to do, like the Presidential Executive Orders against assassination by civilian agencies, against first use of nuclear weapons, or against torture, an Honest spy would follow that.

I'd also expect that an agency like the CIA has some sort of code of conduct it expects field officers to obey, to the point of suffering criminal prosecution if they don't. Speculating on what some of those might be:

Obey orders. Only go off the reservation if you've been assigned a mission. Contact control or 'come out of the cold' when ordered to do so.

Use agency resources - weapons, cover identities, money, human assets - only within the parameters of the mission. No moonlighting.

Report all information to your superiors without fabricating or witholding anything.

No leaking of classified information. No going into business for yourself.

No embezzeling agency funds or supporting criminal enterprises. No dealing in arms, drugs, or intelligence information unless part of a mission.

If you are ordered to assassinate someone, follow any rules of engagement that pertain. Don't kill innocents or people not designated as targets or targets of opportunity.

After Lillehammer in 1972, most agencies probably require very stringent procedures to confirm the identity of a target.

Maintain your cover and that of fellow officers. Don't talk about classified events or information. When required to testify in front of Executive or Legislative branch oversight panels, do so truthfully and accurately.

Follow the restrictions on CIA operations within the United States. Espionage in the U.S. is largely an FBI matter. Co-operate as necessary and don't overstep the CIA's limited domestic role.

Don't spy on your home country or allied countries unless instructed to do so.

I could see an Honest field officer following all these rules and still remaining effective.

[Miles]

That might fit better under Code of Honor (Modern Spy). Of course, it looks equivalent to a Soldier's ten point code honor, so it comes out to the same point cost. And if a player tried to claim points for both that version of Honest, and a spy's code of honor, he'd probably discover first hand how much cr damage GURPS book can do, so basically, the question is moot.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Most police agencies even in corrupt polities do not in fact work that way. Being Honest may make it unlikely that you'll get promoted, and may make your work more dangerous, but it is still usually more about what you are allowed to do than what you must do.

Forgive me, but I find that unconvincing, unsupported, and a mismatch with personal experience even in a 'free and democratic' society. In reality, in places where the rule is to ignore or break the rules, you toe the line or you're not welcome.

Suppose for example that you were a city cop in Moscow, then or now. Your boss isn't going to kill you for not beating confessions out of suspects. But your clearance rate might not be very good so you can forget getting promoted.

When your buddies are all cracking heads and breaking the law, and you're an Honest cop, what is your formal duty? And what do you really do?

[The Gray Fox]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

When your buddies are all cracking heads and breaking the law, and you're and Honest cop, what is your formal duty? And what do you really do?

The movie Serpico addresses this question. It's worth checking out...