Soldierly Honesty (and spies)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Miles

Hey guys, just thought I should point this out. Infinite Worlds page 180 has this to say about honesty.
Make of that what you will.

Hmmmm. Just Hmmmm. And now I have to wonder whether or not that is in addition to local laws or not.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Hmmmm. Just Hmmmm. And now I have to wonder whether or not that is in addition to local laws or not.

An Honest person should obey the local laws when they aren't in conflict with their native laws, I'm sure.

[LemmingLord]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

An Honest person should obey the local laws when they aren't in conflict with their native laws, I'm sure.

Even if that was the intent of the authors, which doesn't seem likely bsed on the wording in the book, again, since it is illegal in your home country to steal secrets from the government, a character with honesty would not be a spy..

UNLESS it was necessary for survival as is listed for "stealing food" and so forth - but as soon as the honest spy delivered the critical information, he would turn himself in to the authorities of the foreign nation, exceptin the likely lethal punishment.

[Landwalker]

Just for the sake of taking the "conflict of laws" ad absurdum, consider this:

In the United States, the law requires you to drive on the right side of the road.

In the United Kingdom, the law requires you to drive on the left side of the road.

Now, obviously, common sense alone would seem to make this a non-issue. However, as it is being argued here, an Honest American who went to the UK would, in the face of conflicting laws between his home country and the country he is visiting, drive on the right side of the road.


Rolling back to the realm of sensibility, here, I think this can serve as a slightly hyperbolic illustration of why Honesty doesn't mean "Home Laws or Bust". The disadvantage says "You must obey the law." If you're in Great Britain, the law is that you drive on the left side of the road, and if you then catch an African Swallow across the Channel to France, the law is that you drive on the right side of the road. Ultimately, "You must obey the law" means "You must not do anything that would get you arrested if caught."

As far as spies, well, I'm of the opinion that no Honest person would ever voluntarily be a spy, and any Honest person who was involuntarily a spy would be a truly awful one. If you are caught conducting espionage in pretty much any country in the world, you will be at best imprisoned and quite possibly executed. If you're an American spy in Iran, your very existence is illegal.

Cheers.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Landwalker

Just for the sake of taking the "conflict of laws" ad absurdum, consider this:

In the United States, the law requires you to drive on the right side of the road.

In the United Kingdom, the law requires you to drive on the left side of the road.

Now, obviously, common sense alone would seem to make this a non-issue. However, as it is being argued here, an Honest American who went to the UK would, in the face of conflicting laws between his home country and the country he is visiting, drive on the right side of the road.

.

American law only requires you drive on the right side on American roads. There is no conflict there.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

American law only requires you drive on the right side on American roads. There is no conflict there.

Good point. But in this case, Americans can't tell their troops to apply American laws to people caught on the territory of Iraq either.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Good point. But in this case, Americans can't tell their troops to apply American laws to people caught on the territory of Iraq either.

I don't know what you mean by that.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I don't know what you mean by that.

Back in the non-legal combatants thread, someone said that during wartime, prisoners who are not POWs (because they're not soldiers) should be judged according to the laws of the occupying nation [America], but that proposal seems to be based on the premise that the occupying nation's laws apply in not only within its borders.

[Akicita]

Originally Posted by Landwalker

...any Honest person who was ... a spy would be a truly awful one.

QFT. I think this is a critical point. Whatever Code of Honor the spy might have, it won't be the same as Honesty in GURPS. Circumstances may force someone with honesty to engage in an act of espionage, but they just wouldn't be capable of making it a career, nor would they be desirable to a recruiter.