Soldierly Honesty (and spies)

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

A spy is breaking the laws of the country he's in, but that's OK, as this is a hostile country to his own. Unfortunately, the very laws he is breaking also exist (in most cases) in his home country. He's also breaking international law if I'm not mistaken, which is something an Honest soldier is beholden to.

A spy might break international law, but espionage itself is not, per se, a violation of international law. (Spies are outside the scope of special international protections which apply to, e.g., regular soldiers in a war, but that's not the same as breaking international law.)

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

A spy might break international law, but espionage itself is not, per se, a violation of international law. (Spies are outside the scope of special international protections which apply to, e.g., regular soldiers in a war, but that's not the same as breaking international law.)

I wasn't certain if espionage alone was considered illegal on the international stage. Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by malloyd

Actually it's not OK. Look at it again. The part about obeying the laws of your home country in an area of little or no law makes it pretty clear if you are Honest you must obey *both* the laws of where you are and of your own nation.

Personally, I think when dealing with an enemy country you are going to consider the laws completely invalid and not applying to you. Otherwise, you can't have an Honest grunt capable of doing his job if the country he's fighting is, say, a hierarchy in which laws only apply to associations with those of the same social class or higher - one can abuse those not of the same or higher status and if the lower fights back he/she is arrested (as the soldier is outside of said social class, he cannot engage any enemies, as this is illegal). That seems ridiculously artificial.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Probably picks the set of laws he likes better.

I would expect an Honest character to consider laws that conflict with his home laws as illegitimate, barbaric, etc. He would probably default to his own laws. Just as the character doesn't "go wild" in lawless areas, I don't think he's going to do essentially the same thing just because a country's laws tell him to. I could be mistaken - GURPS Disadvantages in general seem to be rather extreme versions of their real-life counterparts.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

I would expect an Honest character to consider laws that conflict with his home laws as illegitimate, barbaric, etc. He would probably default to his own laws. .

Usually. But in some cases, he may simply find the foreign legal code to be better (perhaps more in accord with his other mental disads) and switch allegiances. After which of course he has a new set of "home laws"

[Miles]

Hey guys, just thought I should point this out. Infinite Worlds page 180 has this to say about honesty.

An Honest character, in a different time or place, acts as though the laws and morals of his own home were still in force.

Make of that what you will.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Miles

Hey guys, just thought I should point this out. Infinite Worlds page 180 has this to say about honesty.
Make of that what you will.

Hmmmm. Just Hmmmm. And now I have to wonder whether or not that is in addition to local laws or not.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Hmmmm. Just Hmmmm. And now I have to wonder whether or not that is in addition to local laws or not.

An Honest person should obey the local laws when they aren't in conflict with their native laws, I'm sure.

[LemmingLord]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

An Honest person should obey the local laws when they aren't in conflict with their native laws, I'm sure.

Even if that was the intent of the authors, which doesn't seem likely bsed on the wording in the book, again, since it is illegal in your home country to steal secrets from the government, a character with honesty would not be a spy..

UNLESS it was necessary for survival as is listed for "stealing food" and so forth - but as soon as the honest spy delivered the critical information, he would turn himself in to the authorities of the foreign nation, exceptin the likely lethal punishment.

[Landwalker]

Just for the sake of taking the "conflict of laws" ad absurdum, consider this:

In the United States, the law requires you to drive on the right side of the road.

In the United Kingdom, the law requires you to drive on the left side of the road.

Now, obviously, common sense alone would seem to make this a non-issue. However, as it is being argued here, an Honest American who went to the UK would, in the face of conflicting laws between his home country and the country he is visiting, drive on the right side of the road.


Rolling back to the realm of sensibility, here, I think this can serve as a slightly hyperbolic illustration of why Honesty doesn't mean "Home Laws or Bust". The disadvantage says "You must obey the law." If you're in Great Britain, the law is that you drive on the left side of the road, and if you then catch an African Swallow across the Channel to France, the law is that you drive on the right side of the road. Ultimately, "You must obey the law" means "You must not do anything that would get you arrested if caught."

As far as spies, well, I'm of the opinion that no Honest person would ever voluntarily be a spy, and any Honest person who was involuntarily a spy would be a truly awful one. If you are caught conducting espionage in pretty much any country in the world, you will be at best imprisoned and quite possibly executed. If you're an American spy in Iran, your very existence is illegal.

Cheers.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

Personally, I think when dealing with an enemy country you are going to consider the laws completely invalid and not applying to you. Otherwise, you can't have an Honest grunt capable of doing his job if the country he's fighting is, say, a hierarchy in which laws only apply to associations with those of the same social class or higher - one can abuse those not of the same or higher status and if the lower fights back he/she is arrested (as the soldier is outside of said social class, he cannot engage any enemies, as this is illegal). That seems ridiculously artificial.

You might be right, but note that mental GURPS disadvantages are usually rather extreme. Pathological level extreme. It's quite arguable that a grunt with Honesty would be incapable of doing his job in a foreign country. There just aren't many people with that level of compulsion to follow all laws.


Hans