Soldierly Honesty (and spies)

[Ragitsu]

Wait, what is the question (if any)?

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

Wait, what is the question (if any)?

Can spies be honest in Gurps terms?

[jason taylor]

Then there are spies in a civil war. Benedict Arnold cannot be honest as he pledged himself to the rebel government, which from his point of view was the law. John Andre might have been if it wasn't for the fact that he was being insubordinate by going without uniform contrary to orders as he could not possibly be expected to recognize the Continental Congress.

[LemmingLord]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Can spies be honest in Gurps terms?

Interesting question. My first thought is absolutely not. Espionage is, by definition, stealing... and stealing is against the law in the country you are in (where you are stealing the information from).

Spies are spies because they are willing to break the laws of countries for the "greater good" of their own country (or for other incentives I suppose).

[SuedodeuS]

A spy is breaking the laws of the country he's in, but that's OK, as this is a hostile country to his own. Unfortunately, the very laws he is breaking also exist (in most cases) in his home country. He's also breaking international law if I'm not mistaken, which is something an Honest soldier is beholden to.

All told, I'd say a character with GURPS Honesty would generally not be able to be a spy, unless he were from a country with very odd laws. Alternatively, if he managed to do completely legal spying (the kind that wouldn't lead to justified incarceration in his home country), he could get away with it - but he probably wouldn't be able to get very good information!
If the campaign took place primarily in the enemy country, then unless his actions are also legal there he would probably have to take some sort of Accessibility modifier for his Honesty.

EDIT: Of course, if the character believes that what he's doing is legal in his own country, this could also work. Honesty should definitely be discounted in this case, and suffering from Delusion (but not getting points for it) would be justified.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

A spy is breaking the laws of the country he's in, but that's OK, as this is a hostile country to his own. Unfortunately, the very laws he is breaking also exist (in most cases) in his home country. He's also breaking international law if I'm not mistaken, which is something an Honest soldier is beholden to.

A spy might break international law, but espionage itself is not, per se, a violation of international law. (Spies are outside the scope of special international protections which apply to, e.g., regular soldiers in a war, but that's not the same as breaking international law.)

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

A spy might break international law, but espionage itself is not, per se, a violation of international law. (Spies are outside the scope of special international protections which apply to, e.g., regular soldiers in a war, but that's not the same as breaking international law.)

I wasn't certain if espionage alone was considered illegal on the international stage. Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally Posted by malloyd

Actually it's not OK. Look at it again. The part about obeying the laws of your home country in an area of little or no law makes it pretty clear if you are Honest you must obey *both* the laws of where you are and of your own nation.

Personally, I think when dealing with an enemy country you are going to consider the laws completely invalid and not applying to you. Otherwise, you can't have an Honest grunt capable of doing his job if the country he's fighting is, say, a hierarchy in which laws only apply to associations with those of the same social class or higher - one can abuse those not of the same or higher status and if the lower fights back he/she is arrested (as the soldier is outside of said social class, he cannot engage any enemies, as this is illegal). That seems ridiculously artificial.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Probably picks the set of laws he likes better.

I would expect an Honest character to consider laws that conflict with his home laws as illegitimate, barbaric, etc. He would probably default to his own laws. Just as the character doesn't "go wild" in lawless areas, I don't think he's going to do essentially the same thing just because a country's laws tell him to. I could be mistaken - GURPS Disadvantages in general seem to be rather extreme versions of their real-life counterparts.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

I would expect an Honest character to consider laws that conflict with his home laws as illegitimate, barbaric, etc. He would probably default to his own laws. .

Usually. But in some cases, he may simply find the foreign legal code to be better (perhaps more in accord with his other mental disads) and switch allegiances. After which of course he has a new set of "home laws"

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

Personally, I think when dealing with an enemy country you are going to consider the laws completely invalid and not applying to you. Otherwise, you can't have an Honest grunt capable of doing his job if the country he's fighting is, say, a hierarchy in which laws only apply to associations with those of the same social class or higher - one can abuse those not of the same or higher status and if the lower fights back he/she is arrested (as the soldier is outside of said social class, he cannot engage any enemies, as this is illegal). That seems ridiculously artificial.

You might be right, but note that mental GURPS disadvantages are usually rather extreme. Pathological level extreme. It's quite arguable that a grunt with Honesty would be incapable of doing his job in a foreign country. There just aren't many people with that level of compulsion to follow all laws.


Hans

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

A spy is breaking the laws of the country he's in, but that's OK, as this is a hostile country to his own.

Actually it's not OK. Look at it again. The part about obeying the laws of your home country in an area of little or no law makes it pretty clear if you are Honest you must obey *both* the laws of where you are and of your own nation.

Of course it then goes on to contradict itself with all that stuff about fair trials and it being OK to steal at great need but not murder, even though a lot of places have harsher laws against stealing than against murdering the peasants....

I think the problem is Honesty got written with a modern American bias and never revised to a generic form. It can't quite decide which of two different disadvantages it is - Compulsion (obey any laws that apply to you) and Code of Honor (good citizenship of a liberal state). I think these are about -15* and -5 flat points respectively. A spy could not have the first (just the [intent] to spy is a crime most places), the second would be at worst slightly inconvenient, constraining you from using the more intrusive tactics against targets who might possibly be innocents.