'Shotguns have dkb/dbt' - where did that myth (?) come from?

[HANZO]

There have been many cases of police or other law enforcement getting hit multiple times in a vest and having to be treated for internal bleeding from the impact of a hand gun at close range. as well as cracked ribs and a lot of bruising.

I think the myth is that wearing a vest allows the wearer to just keep taking hits like he is superman.

But then again look at the bank robbery in Hollywood a few years back. guys with layered heavy armor. Video

Then again this was what allowed the police there to start carrying AR-15s.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by HANZO

There have been many cases of police or other law enforcement getting hit multiple times in a vest and having to be treated for internal bleeding from the impact of a hand gun at close range. as well as cracked ribs and a lot of bruising.

I think the myth is that wearing a vest allows the wearer to just keep taking hits like he is superman.

But then again look at the bank robbery in Hollywood a few years back. guys with layered heavy armor. Video

Then again this was what allowed the police there to start carrying AR-15s.

Um, I'm not expecting the bulletproof vest to be bulletproof. But there seems to be an opinion that shotguns do 90% of their damage without penetrating the vest at all through the sheer 'crush' (against which vests supposedly offer no meaningful protection), unlike single-ball weapons which do most of their damage through penetration or 'pierce' (to use GURPS terminology).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Um, I'm not expecting the bulletproof vest to be bulletproof. But there seems to be an opinion that shotguns do 90% of their damage without penetrating the vest at all through the sheer 'crush' (against which vests supposedly offer no meaningful protection), unlike single-ball weapons which do most of their damage through penetration or 'pierce' (to use GURPS terminology).

Opinions are like fundamental orifices. Everyone's got one.

That doesn't change the fact that a ball of roughly .33 caliber travelling at low pistol speeds will perform poorly against body armour. And adding eight more similar balls won't magically make any of them perform better (and the odds of them impacting at precisely the same spot are minimal).

A tactical vest that's proofed against 9mm will also protect against anything up to triple-ought buckshot. Depending on design, it may leave broken ribs or it may be difficult to even notice during an adrenaline-charged encounter. Needless to say, vests of the former design will have a poor reputation with actual operators and will usually not be issued to police or military.

[SimonAce]

A shotgun slug is nearly an ounce of metal traveling at the speed of sound or faster. That might break ribs, might.

try this link, box of truth to see what 12g vs 3a vest is like


That doesn't mean the guy on the receiving end of things will even feel it to till the fights over though. buckshot won't go through soft armor or do the job well.

[Anthony]

Incidentally, it's not unreasonable to say that a shotgun slug has twice the knockback of a rifle bullet with comparable damage; it's very likely true. It's just that neither weapon has meaningful levels of knockback.

[SimonAce]

Here is a police training video that covers everything you might want to know about shotgun ammuntion including the oddballs.

The only thing not covered was AP slugs vs body armor as I suspect that made the cops queasy

[LuciusSummers]

Fundamentally no gun causes significant levels of knock back.

Simple rule of conservation of momentum and energy.

Every force that a bullet has is given to it in the moment of firing. As momentum at that point must be conserved the amount of knock back a round has is equal to its recoil.

So unless you can see the firer flying backwards will smith style (from Men in Black) the gun is not going to have significant knock back. Of course this is still able to trip people if they do not have good footing same as if you try and fire a shot gun without properly bracing.

As for broken ribs etc. Concealable vest - good approximate for a modern bulletproof without plates etc. Is DR 12 against the average damage of a rifled slug for a shoty (either because they were firing them or as gurps models a close quarters blast from a buckshot) is 18. Thus 6 (12 considering the pi++ bit) points would go through a major wound at minimum and more than enough to cause a few broken ribs.

Else the 2 points of bruising it causes could also cause broken rib or two. Most hospitals would consider someone with a broken rib or two to be in the Good category of injury in the GURPS campaigns (page 421) which is someone with HP over 50% but less than 100%.

End of the day what the injury is specifically is flavor added by the GM. So id sat GURPS already supports what you have said.

[HuManBing]

SimonAce, that website has another test (test #3, the wall penetration test for shotgun ammunition loads) which includes this "unofficial" finding:

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

:D

[Biker Matt]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Opinions are like fundamental orifices. Everyone's got one.

That doesn't change the fact that a ball of roughly .33 caliber travelling at low pistol speeds will perform poorly against body armour. And adding eight more similar balls won't magically make any of them perform better (and the odds of them impacting at precisely the same spot are minimal).

A tactical vest that's proofed against 9mm will also protect against anything up to triple-ought buckshot. Depending on design, it may leave broken ribs or it may be difficult to even notice during an adrenaline-charged encounter. Needless to say, vests of the former design will have a poor reputation with actual operators and will usually not be issued to police or military.

sorry to say, but my roommate's a marine, and he's shot a 9mm into a plastic milk carton and had the bullet bounch off!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Biker Matt

sorry to say, but my roommate's a marine, and he's shot a 9mm into a plastic milk carton and had the bullet bounch off!

Eh, yes?

I'm hard-pressed to find the relevance here. Do you mean that because implausible things sometimes happen in the real world, there is no point to scientific research?