'Shotguns have dkb/dbt' - where did that myth (?) come from?

[Biker Matt]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A well-delivered punch involves torso muscles, but the actual impact mass is much smaller. Essentially, a punch uses a mechanism very similar to a whip crack to transfer rotational energy generated in the hips and torso into hand velocity, but the mass which is actually relevant for knockback purposes is only the hand and for some types of strike the forearm.

I make use of two techniques, and call them Forearm Strike and Shoulder Bash (Incidentally, This is Mechanic-from-Reality here!). As near as I can determine, FS deals double Thrust damage for purposes of knockback, but half damage for purposes of HP loss (the attack deals 2d, with a 1/4 multiplier after determining knockback, averaging a bit under 2 listed damage, but 7 average knockback damage), and SB dealing x3 and 1/3 (3d rolled to average 10.5, and barely over 1 result damage). If you include the "knockback safety" rule (which I do: each hex of knockback = -1 damage, and knockback based on ST-3 rather than ST-2), FS usually deals 1 point of damage, and SB rarely deals any damage at all! If you treat Shotgun damage the same way, you may get that 1d+1 or +2 of regular damage, and some multiplier for knockback damage (averaging, say, 18-22 points for purposes of knockback, making your average person go back 2-3 yards with the single hit), which brings it MUCH more in-line with the other firearms listed in terms of effectiveness (and that much more realistic, too!)

remember, I'm estimating the rules based on what I KNOW I can do!

[LuciusSummers]

Originally Posted by Biker Matt

If you treat Shotgun damage the same way, you may get that 1d+1 or +2 of regular damage, and some multiplier for knockback damage (averaging, say, 18-22 points for purposes of knockback, making your average person go back 2-3 yards with the single hit), which brings it MUCH more in-line with the other firearms listed in terms of effectiveness (and that much more realistic, too!)

Which considering how many people have all ready told you shotguns do not do knock back, makes this a cinematic not realistic in any way rule.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Depends on what you count as being the arms, but in any case, that would give 7 kilograms for both arms put together, and at that weight probably includes upper arms and shoulder, which aren't really part of the impact mass of a punch.

Yes and no. An arm by itself is (for simplicity, if not anything else) considered as the part which moves when the torso is fixed, i.e. everything from the shoulderjoint. But the thing is, a punch doesn't involve just the arm moving. It involves the torso turning, a large aid from the hips, and (assuming something like [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcsqA4ncnzYoi-zuki[/url] [watch near the very end]) a long step forward.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Anthony

For reference, knife-proof vests are generally normalized for a 40J impact, which is more than most people can actually deliver.

A quick check of my bookmarks shows this:
"Stabbing:
Underarm: up to 63 J
Overarm: up to 115 J
(These are maximum values. PSDP testing suggests that a stab resistant vest rated at 43 joules should be able to stop stabs from 96% of the male population. These standards assume typical commercial knife handles. A fighting handle with a well designed guard to prevent slipping might add another 5 J to the effective attack."
from http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot...vs-muscle.html
I haven't checked the references, use at your own risk.

Luke