[DF] Suitable Dangerous Encounters

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ts_

So ... some statistics are in. I only consider the Barb and his Guards, no one else (though adding more fighters on either side shouldn't be hard).

Things considered:
* damage types, DR, etc but no hit locations
* Barb uses deceptive attack down to 15
* HT checks at <= 0 HP, and death checks at -1xHP,..-5xHP with appropriate modifiers.
* dodge is halved at <= 1/3xHP
* parry is reduced by -4 each parry

....

Fun fact: Barb with HT 23 can win vs 4 guards 50% of the time.

What does this tell us? I don't know.

Regards,
Ts

I wonder, since you didn't note it specifically...is that taking into account automatic death at -5x HP?

[Ts_]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I wonder, since you didn't note it specifically...is that taking into account automatic death at -5x HP?

Yep. Also, one more thing I forgot to mention in that post: Critical hits are automatical hits (but the critical hit table is not involved), and critical misses have no meaning beyond that they are a miss. All skill rolls stick to the rules regarding what is a crit etc.

What I wonder about most, however, is the strategy of the Barb. Killing the guards one at a time seemed like the only reasonable choice, but it might not be. Now that I realized how important HT is (yes, I'm a noob) and seeing how negative HP _will_ make you unconscious sooner or later, maybe the Barb should no longer try to kill the guards but instead bring each down to <= 0 HP as quickly as possible. Then a guard will be able to make 1 more attack (on average) before he falls unconscious.

Continuing to try and hurt a guard at non-positive HP might be a waste of the Barb's turn for two reasons: Independent of what the Barb does, the Guard might fall unconscious at the beginning of his next turn (with a 50% chance). And even if the Barb lands a blow (80%), he has maybe a 60% chance to push the guard beyond the next step of -HP. This is simply another HT check (say, 60% chance of death). So this is only a useful move if 80% (hit) * 60% (meaningful damage) * 60% (guard dies) * (50% guard would have made the next HT check) = 15%. So, yeah, I should change the Barb's strategy.

Uggh ... even at this very low level of details, GURPS has strategy ... I'm going back to a game where people die at 0 HP!!!111

Regards,
Ts

[mlangsdorf]

In most DF games, a bunch of guards are going to be fodder or worthy opponents, not bosses, and would be expected to disengage/surrender/fall over and die after either taking 1 HP of damage or going to 0 HP or worse. So you should factor that in.

You should also limit the number of guards that can attack the barbarian at once - realistically, he can probably get his back to the wall and only have to deal with the 3 guys in front of him. So the fight becomes more of an endurance contest and less of a "surround the barbarian and prevent him from defending."

2 guards, with skill-12 in their weapons, do not match my expectations of what a DF Barbarian can actually take out.

[Bruno]

Most people do tend to fall over voluntarily once they reach 0 HP if it looks like their foe might stop hitting them - it takes Fanaticism, Berserk, Bloodlust, a Sense of Duty under threat, or similar disadvantages to push people to suicidal lengths.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Ts_

What I wonder about most, however, is the strategy of the Barb. Killing the guards one at a time ....

Continuing to try and hurt a guard at non-positive HP might be a waste of the Barb's turn ....

So, yeah, I should change the Barb's strategy.

... even at this very low level of details, GURPS has strategy ...

Im curious to see what you get as well, but the more strategy you take into a count, the more difficult, and less precise, exercise it will be.

Since all Combat options (other than Attack Rolls and active defense) are...well ...optional, I think this scenario is a fair model of Novice GURPS players.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

In most DF games, a bunch of guards are going to be fodder .... So you should factor that in.

You should also limit the number of guards that can attack the barbarian at once....

2 guards, with skill-12 in their weapons, do not match my expectations of what a DF Barbarian can actually take out.

How do you factor in their wilingness to retreat? If the GM wants them to run away, then let them run away, no modeling is needed.

Due to the reach of the spears, Id think that even with a back to the wall, theres enough reach to get in more than 3 hits (8?)

Finally, as with all things you can tweak the barbarian stats, have him fight smarter, tweak the guards down in skill, Give the Barbarian a shield, give the guards staffs...there is virtually no end to the way you can adjust this encounter.

I would like to review the situation though:

Barbarian - built on the DF template
Fur armor, No shield, SKill 17, Cutting Damage, swinging Bastard sword 1 handed.

Hes practically Nekkid!

versus

Guard - that I just sorta made up
FULL plate (DR7), Spears, ST of about 11-12, skill of 12, Impaling Damage

Id say 2 to 1, 3 to 1, with NO strategy/tactics is pretty impressive!


The point is that with this model we know that there are things we can do JUST with the few stats we are looking at if we want the Barbie to be more effective.

Barbarian Tougher
More DR, A shield,

Guard TOugher
Skill, Shields.

Nymdok

[Agramer]

Barbarian evaluates in wait with tree(insert obstacle) so he can be attacked only by 2 enemies on turn1.

Barb skill 17
guards skill12

Turn1:
Barbarian interrupts enemy move and attacks at 2 hex reach with his 2hander.
He makes deceptive attack(+3 from evaluate comes in handy).
17+3=20 -6(-3 def) :> 7 or less defense for guard(if he has comb reflexes)
1 guard down

2nd guard attacks barb....Barb uses step back +3 on dodge(or+1 and parry if better;with parry 13..70ish%).

-attempts to slam Barb are funny so guards dont do that

Turn 2:
Barb rapid strikes guard ... (2 attacks on 11 roll = 1 hits) and steps back(2 hex distance now)

2ndGuard defends with roll of 10 =50% chance

if miss: 2nd guard makes full move to catch up with barb(or All out attacks => barb will kill another one turn after...I love AoAs on my chars)

3rd guard "catches up" with barb with full move
4th guard catches up with barb with full move.

turn 3:
Barb uses full move backpedaling or strafing to get to another tree and cover his flank(if 3 guards...if 2 guards barb rapid strikes or deceptive attacks one guard)

Guards..full move catch up

By using terrain Barb can drag this a long time.
If he has High pain treshold and high basic speed he can "run circles "around those average encumbered guards.

Adding cleric into picture:
Cleric announces all out defence while guards are approaching...if barb gets hit cleric can heal him on his turn...otherwise just all out defends to keep barbs flank safe.

Adding mage to picture is really hard since it depends on his spells/fatigues/creativity...

Though mages tend to be able to make a lot of mess if used creatively.
even "uncreative" use of Flash spell would turn this encounter into walkover(with prearanged reaction from rest of PCs when mage yells..close your eyes..or flashhh...whatever).

-simple spells :

Create fire area 2: effectively keeps one side safe(who in his right mind would jump into 4 metars high magical fire)

Shape air for 6 fatigues gives:
straith 1 hex wide line of huricane st wind...6 hexes long with 3d knockback to anyone inside it/crossing it
-best part is that duration is 1 minute(whole encounter) and mage can move it with concentration if needed
(10 fatigues..10 hex length with 5d knockback)

Spasm is nice for people dropipng things from their hands(swords )...
(other fun spells there)

Create water + earth(mud) to stone = fun
Shape earth + earth to stone

Ignite fire(on enemys hair ) -sure will give distraction(from losing turns to snuff it out to penalty to iq/dx)

Illusion spells combined with Illusion art skill :D

....etc

If mage has high enough skill and some of more serious spells and is creative = totally unpredictable

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

How do you factor in their wilingness to retreat? If the GM wants them to run away, then let them run away, no modeling is needed.

Yes, there is. If they run away when they reach 1/2 HP, or play dead when they hit 0 HP, this changes their "Up time" significantly.

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Barbarian - built on the DF template
Fur armor, No shield, SKill 17, Cutting Damage, swinging Bastard sword 1 handed.

Hes practically Nekkid!

If he's swinging a bastard sword one handed, he's using a shield or another weapon in that free hand (mostly for parrying).

Fur armor ("practically nekkid") is not "on the template" and would be pretty crazy to do in tandem with no shield. Either he ditches the shield, spends that money on at least Leather armor, and swings the sword two handed for more damage, or he gets a shield.

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Guard - that I just sorta made up
FULL plate (DR7), Spears, ST of about 11-12, skill of 12, Impaling Damage

That guard is already tougher than the assumption up thread, and full plate on the guards is ... weird.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Agramer

...
If mage has high enough skill and some of more serious spells and is creative = totally unpredictable

Well, I've actually been thinking about that.

There are spells that do damge: Treat as Weapon, dividing that average damage through DR by the casting time. Normally Includes Jets, Balls, bolts, touches, rains, hails etc.

There are 'affliction' type spells: Treat as Affliction type abilites with effect expectation figured from Resistance (and possibly attack rolls for those that require touch). Blindness, sleep, paralysis, entombment, Buffs, etc..

There are Blocking Spells: Treat as an AD.

Those 3 types are actually no harder than the Melee combat to model using our simplified version.

The problem of course is the 'environment shaping' type spells. Create Fire, Darkness, Glue etc because of their peristence and flexibility.

Nymdok

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, there is. If they run away when they reach 1/2 HP, or play dead when they hit 0 HP...

If he's swinging a bastard sword one handed, he's using a shield or another weapon in that free hand (mostly for parrying).

Fur armor ("practically nekkid") is not "on the template" and would be pretty crazy to do in tandem with no shield....

That guard is already tougher than the assumption up thread, and full plate on the guards is ... weird.

Yes but I'm not aware of any RAW that says they retreat at those levels. Its up to the GM AFAIK.

The Barbarian Modeled has nothing in his other hand. True that its likely, but its not what was modeled.

You are correct, Fur armor is not on the template, there was no equipment on the template for any of these. I just modeled the ones in my head. Barbarian had furs, Wizard had Robe/Dress and pointy hat, Cleric had Mace Shield and Chain.

Also noteworthy is that barbarians come stock with 17 ST and this particular one has 20. in the 'Select 30 points from' I chose +3 ST for simplicity. I didn't increase the HP by 3 because I simply forgot.

The guard is unchanged.
Guard in full Plate(DR7), With Spear(12:1d+2 Imp), Defense(BPD) = 0-9-9, HP:10.

Yes Full plate is weird, I chose it largely to show that Against 4d damage, even plate wont save you. As a matter of fact, it doesnt make a whole lotta difference vs 3d damge.

These Caveats aside, I still stand by the work done, and would love to hear how a playtest went :)

Nymdok