[DF/General] Why prepackaged adventures are good

[hoshisabi]

I see a lot of discussion about prepackaged adventures aren't necessary, because the GM can so easily create every aspect of their dungeons pretty simple. It's true.

However, I think that some of the new campaigns show how things might be changing a little for GURPS. These prepackaged settings involve a little more cliche, a little more of a shared experience. They show you how to simplify the "roll your own" aspects of the game and how to ignore some of those things that "don't matter for the quick and dirty game." (They're great for those GMs who love world building, but sometimes you want to throw some dice and kick in some doors.)

One of the true strengths of a prepackaged adventure is the "shared experience" that it opens up for everyone. Once you and your buddies tackle "The Tomb of Unspeakable Slimy Bad Things" (coming soon to e23, just kidding), you can talk to some other group and say "Remember the slimy bad thing in the room with the thousand dirty salad forks?"

One of the stories that I saw posted on the forums someone posted was about their "then girlfriend, now wife" and an encounter in Harkwood, the "spider in the trees." I never got that adventure, but I can draw a parallel with my own experiences with Tomb of Horrors, Isle of Dread, and a few others. Even those adventures that were horrible allow me to talk about that experience to other players without inflicting upon them a one-sided conversation.

The other benefit to these sort of prepackaged works is that it the DM who is new to the rules or the genre has an idea of things. "Oh, that's how I build a monster to challenge the party." Or give them ideas on how to invoke the true feeling of a genre that a GM might have an interest in, but has never run.

The cliches in Dungeon Fantasy (and maybe Action!, but I haven't bought any of those yet) are full of fun cliches, that make it easier for a GM to plop a bunch of fresh players, unfamilar with the rules system, and have them feel at home.

The other thing that the DF Series of books has done is introduce a set of "standard adventurers" for which you can aim your adventures and your monster books. You have a good gauge of what you can expect the people who go through your encounter to be like, what sorts of abilities that they will bring.

So, whatever brave freelancer out there has thought "well, I'd write an adventure or a book of monsters, but I hear that they don't sell well" ... well, I think that the DF series might be your ticket to give it a shot. You have at least one customer who is out there waiting anxiously. I think that DF (and Action!) have changed the rules just slightly by introducing some commonality.

In the mean time, I'm just thankful for the people posting ideas on the forums and ideas from their own game. I'm especially thankful for the Westmarch saga, whose session logs and house rules have given me a lot to think about. I also love the Homebrew monsters thread. Oh, heck, I just love these forums.

Thanks to everyone, DF has been a fun way to spend some Sundays and I look forward to more.

[DAT]

You make some good points about an important starter niche for prepackaged modular adventures, especially for DF. Us 'mature' players with our war stories of 1e and 2e D&D modules like Keep on the Borderlands, Isle of Dread, Against the Slavers, Against the Giants, Expedition to Barrier Peaks, Against the Drow, etc. There is a sense of comradery from playing and or DMing them.

But the same could sort of be said for Orcslayer, Harkwood, Caravan to Ein Arris, Fighters of the Purple Rage (plus the other three adventures in GURPS Fantasy Adventures). Only one has been translated to 4e so far, but the others could be. And DF versions of them could be made also.

The one issue I'm not so sure of is if you could truely make generic scenarios. I think GURPS character effectiveness can be much more greatly influenced by player experience and creativity than D&D character effectiveness can. This is a strength of GURPS, but makes generic scenario/encounter design much more difficult.

Not to saybit isn't worth trying (some day I'd like to give it a try), but it will be a bigger challenge than you may think at first glance.
- Dan

[hoshisabi]

Originally Posted by DAT

The one issue I'm not so sure of is if you could truely make generic scenarios. I think GURPS character effectiveness can be much more greatly influenced by player experience and creativity than D&D character effectiveness can. This is a strength of GURPS, but makes generic scenario/encounter design much more difficult.

I'd love to see some of the old GURPS adventures converted over. I've never played any of them, but I've read through the GURPS Bansestorm from cover to cover, have the old 3rd edition fantasy book, and well, it's a good setting.

The nice thing that DF does for you is provide a relatively stable benchmark. You have your setting (dungeon fantasy), your approximate power level (250 point templates), and even a good idea of what powers each of the players will bring.

I'm coming to the close of the current adventure with my own group, perhaps I'll write something up and put it online. If others find it useful, then perhaps that will be the first step.

In the mean time, I'm still trying to discover things like "How do I present a challenge that thehalf-ogre barbarian won't ker-splat in one shot without making the thief cry out in frustration."

That's the sort of thing that allows a new GM to learn how to run a game by rote, a little bit of "Oh, I've done this before" makes you feel a lot more confident when you go off and do things on your own.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by hoshisabi

In the mean time, I'm still trying to discover things like "How do I present a challenge that thehalf-ogre barbarian won't ker-splat in one shot without making the thief cry out in frustration."

The standard solution is creating a mixed group of badguys - something big and hardened for the ogre to trade punches with, and some smaller, nimble skirmishers for the theif to be chased around by. Or a big bad thing for the ogre to hold off while the theif works frantically to open the gate/drop the locked portcullis/deathtrap on it/whatever.

Of course, if you have just one big bad, unless it has eyes on the back of its head, the thief can probably get behind it and shiv it in the kidneys or cut its hamstrings or otherwise contribute to the fight.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by hoshisabi

...
In the mean time, I'm still trying to discover things like "How do I present a challenge that thehalf-ogre barbarian won't ker-splat in one shot without making the thief cry out in frustration."

Im working on this problem in other threads, but heres the short of it....

When looking at combat effectiveness, look at
skill v Active Defense
Str/DMG vs DR

Dont obsess too much over the Template you've used to build the charachter, keep your eye on those 4 metrics and that should guide you to a conclusion.

Also, lets not forget, that point budget means everyone has weaknesses. Your ST 20 barbarian is going to be up a creek if he runs into a mage with mind control spells, because thats generally a low Will build and magic resistance is only going to help so much.

Nymdok

[Greg 1]

Another thing that can be done to prevent overkill encounters is to give the PCs the option to avoid the encounter, or at least to prepare for it carefully. Smart PCs with plans can be very, very dangerous.

I agree that prepackaged adventures are useful. My impression is that SJG are willing to publish them but that they aren't being overwhelmed by people wanting to write them.

Its up to us, then, to either make submissions to SJG or just build dungeons ourselves and stick them online.

[HuManBing]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Another thing that can be done to prevent overkill encounters is to give the PCs the option to avoid the encounter, or at least to prepare for it carefully. Smart PCs with plans can be very, very dangerous.

I agree strongly with this idea. Ever since I played Deus Ex, I've tried to work in alternative routes for most encounters in the games I write. Where a given encounter is unavoidable, the PCs should be allowed some way of mitigating or ameliorating the situation with careful research and preparation.

Perhaps my favorite "boss battle" turned out this way too. The PCs knew there was a vampiress waiting for them in the chapel of the desecrated church. They had taken extra risk to save the high priest, so I decided he would give them information about a secret passageway to the rafters. When the PCs went into the church to confront the vampiress, she had a surprise tactic - but their preparation paid off.

The vampiress could turn her skin invisible at will, so the first thing she did was to shed her robe and do so. The PCs were mostly on the ground level, so they were tripping over pews and stumbling around corners. Left to that situation, they would have become vampire-fodder very quickly.

But they had a special ace in the hole. One of them had used the secret passageway to climb into the rafters. When he saw his friends stagger under invisible attacks down below, he cut the banners down. The falling cloth snagged his friends... but they also snagged the invisible vampiress too! Although they lost several good men in the fight, the PCs were able to counteract the boss' invisibility power and eventually kill her.

My players still think back to that fight with a lot of fondness. It combined a good dose of sex and violence, but also a large amount of tactical thought and canny planning.

I have to convert that to GURPS someday. The original was in DnD 3rd ed.

[hoshisabi]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Another thing that can be done to prevent overkill encounters is to give the PCs the option to avoid the encounter, or at least to prepare for it carefully. Smart PCs with plans can be very, very dangerous.

You need to be cautious about assuming your PCs have plans too.

Last week, had huge cue cards to indicate to the party "You have what you need" and yet they kept looking for more evidence. The entire session last week was completely extraneous (but even more damning) evidence that the mayor was a "bad guy" and something should be done.

I think the key was just to think on your feet, if something feels like it's slow, try to figure out some little clue or at least an interesting diversion to spur the action, and make it seem like at any point everyone could die.

(I developed this reputation for being a killer GM a whiles back, so people expect a TPK every now and then... granted, they don't expect arbitrary TPKs, but they know that if they ignore every bit of warning that says "don't go this way" that it's entirely possible that there will be a "roll up new characters" session the next week. I haven't had one in years, but I still have that rep.)

[Bruno]

The Players view from "ground level" is very restricted, compared to the GM's "Birds eye view" of the situation.

Unlike in combat with a battlemap, where players can effectively see 360 degrees, through walls, under objects, etc (Even though the PC can't) a player out of combat collecting clues really has the same restricted vision his character has, and on top of that he's handicapped by needing his own inspirations to assemble information that his PC has finally acquired.

So it's a bit like wearing two pairs of sunglasses - not much is reaching the Player through both of those filters.

It generally takes 3-5x as many hints as you think it should to get the full situation across to players - never mind those days where they see one clue and jump immediately to "THE BUTLER DID IT".

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by hoshisabi

(I developed this reputation for being a killer GM a whiles back, so people expect a TPK every now and then... granted, they don't expect arbitrary TPKs, but they know that if they ignore every bit of warning that says "don't go this way" that it's entirely possible that there will be a "roll up new characters" session the next week. I haven't had one in years, but I still have that rep.)

I've never TPK'd, but I have TPK-O'd before... I've also had the odd villain offer surrender. Depends what the situation calls for.

On the whole pre-packaged adventure, I honestly think that's why D&D became so popular. They have a metric ton of modules out there and several people I know had bookshelves full of them. They didn't always use the plot content, but numerous times they found a nice map that would work in their other campaigns. I think those raw materials are what's keeping a lot of the less toolboxy type GMs from picking up GURPS.