[Help to design] In the 41st millenium there is only...

[Ego Archive]

From a purely fluff side, I would imagine that the Space Marine requirements would be higher than 12's, as they are supposed to be the greatest warriors of their planet, hand picked by the chapter. that said, once you add the SM Template they are already pretty formidable, so they might be something that people would just handwave.

The template that I'm thinking about would be the Librarian/Grey Knight, or sanctioned Psykers. Of course I haven't read enough fiction about them to try to create templates for them.

[Ulzgoroth]

Not terribly helpful for conversion, perhaps, but I wonder if it might be appropriate to describe settings like WH40K with TL X-Y. Perhaps 11-4, in the particular case. They have the trappings of a high tech level, but their civilization behaves more like TL 7. Sort of the opposite of TL 7+4, which has the capabilities of a TL 11 civilization based on technology that went off the rails at TL 7.

[Tema69]

@Ulzgoroth: Good point.

@Ego Archive: I'm not saying that 12 is the requirement. I'm just suggestion that 12 be the minimum. But you're right. 14 or more should probably be the minimum, but then again, we could balance it out by reducing the ST bonus to +6 instead of +8, "letting" the character "buy" his +2 ST as a "I'm top 100 of the planet" instead of "I'm a pumped up supersoldier".
So? Reduce ST & HT to +6 each?

[naloth]

If all SM's are going to start with 12+ anyway you should just build it into the trait. Personally I figure ST20 is a minimum since it doubles the amount of damage they can take, doubles healing, and halves stun.

My SMs would have stats like:
ST+10 (-10% SM+1, lowest for a marine most will have higher)
DX+2 (lowest against for an array of decent skills)
IQ+0 (They pick warriors not thinkers!)
HT+4 (They are really tough to kill.)

Secondary Heart: Hard to Kill 5 [10];
Ossmodula: Gigantism [0]

The Hard to Kill is unnecessary with a high HT.

Biscopea: ST & HT increase. About ST+6 and HT +4 [100]? That's assuming that the soon-to-be-Marine already has pretty high ST & HT (around 12 at least).

Building the minimums into the template is a good idea otherwise you're going to need a SM candidate template.

Larraman's Organ & Haemastamen: Regeneration (Slow) [10]
Catalepsean Node: Less Sleep 4 [8]

Ok, though ST20 and a high HT are as good as Slow Regen already.

Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney: Resistant (+8 HT vs. All Metabolic Hazards) [15]

Don't they have Filter Lungs instead? Anyway a high basic HT protects against most things.

Omophagea: Mind Reading (only by ingesting) [15]

I had forgotten this. Mind Probe is better tho.

Occulobe: Night Vision 4 [4]
Lyman’s Ear: Acute Hearing 2 [2]

I might do something else for hearing. For just high basic senses you can give them a +1 Alertness.

Sus-an Membrane: Metabolism Control 4 [20]
Melanochrome: Radiation Tolerance 5 [10]
Neuroglottis: Detect (Poisons, Vague) [3]
Mucranoid: Temperature Tolerance 5 (5xHT degrees extra comfort zone) [5]

Some of these seem high. Frex, TT5 with a HT12 will allow you to exceed your normal comfort zone by 60-degrees (that's -25F to 150F naked).

Betcher’s Gland: Innate Attack (1d Corrosion, 1/2D 1m, Max 2m, RoF 1, Weakened without 1 min Preparation, Costs 1 Fatigue) [4]

What's weakened do to it (1/2 damage)? Personally I would have gone with extra time.

[Sam Baughn]

How's this look for a DKoK template?

Death Korps of Krieg Guardsman (60 points)

Attributes: ST 11 [10]; DX 11 [20]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 11 [10].

Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-1/1d+1; BL 24 lbs.; HP 11 [0]; Will 11 [5]; Per 10 [0]; FP 11 [0]; Basic Speed 5.5 [0]; Basic Move 5 [0].

Advantages: Military Rank 0 [0], Fit [5] and 20 points chosen from among Ambidexterity [5], Combat Reflexes [15], Fearlessness [2/level], High Pain Threshold [10], Resistant (Poison, +3 or Respiratory Poison, +8) [5] and Unfazeable [15].

Disadvantages: Duty (Extremely Hazardous, Almost all the time) [-20] and -20 points chosen from among Bloodlust [-10], Callous [-5], Fanaticism (Imperium of Man) [-15], No Sense of Humour [-10] or Workaholic [-5].

Primary Skills: Environment Suit (NBC Suit) (A) DX+1 [8]-12 and
Soldier (A) IQ+2 [8]-12.

Secondary Skills: Beam Weapons (Rifle) (E) DX+1 [2]-12 and Knife (E) DX+1 [4]-12.

Background Skills: Any four of Axe/Mace (A) DX [2]-11, Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-12, Electronics Operation (Comm) (A) IQ [2]-10, Fast Draw (Knife or Grenade) (E) DX+1[2]-12, First Aid (E) IQ+1 [2]-11, Forward Observer (A) IQ [2]-10, Navigation (Land) (A) IQ [2]-10, Spear (A) DX [2]-11, Stealth (A) DX [2]-11 or Throwing (A) DX [2]-11.

Infantry (+6 points)
Hiking (A) HT+1 [4]-12 and one of Fast Draw (Ammunition) (E) DX+1 [2]-12, Guns (Grenade Launcher) (E) DX+1 [2]-12, Liquid Projector (Flamethrower) (E) DX+1 [2]-12 or Spear (A) DX [2]-11.

Grenadier (+38 points)
Add +1 DX [20] and either +1 ST [10] or +1 HT [10]; Throwing (A) DX [2]-12; one of Hiking (A) HT+1 [4]-12 or Running (A) HT+1 [4]-12 and any one of Armoury (Small Arms) (A) IQ [2]-10, Driving (Tracked) (A) DX [2]-12, Explosives (Demolitions) (A) IQ [2]-10, Guns (Grenade Launcher) (E) DX+1 [2]-13, Gunner (Machine Gun) (E) DX+1 [2]-13 or Liquid Projector (Flamethrower) (E) DX+1 [2]-13.

Heavy Weapon Crew (+20 points)
Add +1 ST [10]; Hiking (A) HT+1 [4]-12, Lifting (A) HT+1 [4]-12 and Gunner (Beams or Machine Gun) (E) DX+1 [2]-12.

Artillery Crew (+16 points)
Add Artillery (Cannon) (A) IQ+2 [8]-12, Gunner (Cannon) (E) DX+1 [2]-12, Lifting (A) HT+1 [4]-12 and one of Armoury (Heavy Weapons) (A) IQ [2]-10, Freight Handling (A) IQ [2]-10, Driving (Tracked) (A) DX [2]-11 or Hiking (A) HT [2]-11.

Vehicle Crew (+6 points)
Add one of Armoury (Heavy Weapons or Vehicular Armor) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11, Driving (Tracked) (A) DX+1 [4]-12 or Mechanic (Tracked Vehicle) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11; One of Freight Handling (A) IQ [2]-10, Gunner (Beams, Cannon or Machine Gun) (E) DX+1 [2]-12 or Liquid Projector (Flamethrower) (E) DX+1 [2]-12.

Death Rider (+17 points)
Add Beam Weapons (Pistol) (E) DX+1 [2]-12, the Mounted Shooting technique for Beam Weapons (Pistol) at Default+4 [5]-12, Broadsword (A) DX [2]-11, Lance (A) DX [2]-11, Riding (Krieg Steed) (A) DX+1 [4] and one of Animal Handling (Equines) (A) IQ [2]-10, Fast Draw (Sword or Pistol) (E) DX+1 [2]-12 or Observation (A) Per [2]-10.

Engineer (+40 points)
Add +1 IQ [20], Military Rank 1 [5], Guns (Shotgun) (E) DX+1 [2]-12, Engineer (Combat) (H) IQ [4]-11, Mathematics (Applied) (H) IQ-2 [1]-9 and any two of Camouflage (E) IQ+2 [4]-13, Driving (Tracked) (A) DX+1 [4]-12, Explosives (Demolition or EOD) (A) IQ+1 [4]-12, Hazardous Materials (Chemical) (A) IQ+1 [4]-12, Scrounging (E) Per+2 [4]-13 or Traps (A) IQ+1 [4]-12.

Senior Guardsman (+5 points)
Add Military Rank 1 [5].

Watchmaster / Ridemaster / Tank Commander (+34 points)
Add +1 IQ [20], Military Rank 2 [10] and any two of Beam Weapons (Pistol) (E) DX+1 [2]-12, Broadsword (A) DX [2]-11, Leadership (A) IQ [2]-11 or Tactics (H) IQ-1 [2]-10.

EDIT: Common quirks for Krieg Guardsmen include Wears chem-suit and rebreather mask even when not in battle, Dislikes speaking to non-Krieg and Even more obsessed with death, skulls, brooding on grim darkness, etc. than normal inhabitant of 41st millenium.

EDIT: Added a couple of skills. Changes marked in italics.

[Sam Baughn]

Here are a couple of older threads which might be of use:

This one has my attempt at a space marine template:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=48175

This one has various bits and pieces, mostly about weapons:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=9229

[KjetilKverndokken]

Thats fantastic, Dkok templates all the way :)

[Tema69]

@Naloth:
ST20 bare minimum and probably much higher?
Uhm... With Striking and Lifting ST +20 from the armour, that's gonna end up waaay too high. I think ST18 would work fine as the "average" ST, kinda like ST10 is human average. ST22 for a Marine would be exceptional for example.
I'm gonna have to read up on that ST20+ rule before I make any more comments.

Your other stats seem fine. IQ would probably be higher among some chapters and among senior officers, chaplains and librarians.

Why is Hard To Kill unnecessary? Assuming HT 14-16, it's very useful, especially when he reaches multiple minus HP.

Slow Regen is a must IMHO, simply due to its universal aspect among Space Marines.

Mind probe allows a single question to be answered, right? That's probably better, yea,

What do you suggest for hearing?

Temperature Tolerance is probably too high, yeah. I'm european, so I'm not used to F degrees. How much would you suggest?
Radiation Tolerance could be reduced to 2?

I made it weakened without preparation because I've read about it being
done instantly (mostly as an attack), but also being 'prepared' (mostly against objects).


@Perfect Organism: Great stuff! I'm gonna have to go through that SM template to scrounge up some ideas. The weapon list doesn't seem balanced against armour though.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Tema69

@Naloth:
ST20 bare minimum and probably much higher?
Uhm... With Striking and Lifting ST +20 from the armour, that's gonna end up waaay too high. I think ST18 would work fine as the "average" ST, kinda like ST10 is human average. ST22 for a Marine would be exceptional for example.
I'm gonna have to read up on that ST20+ rule before I make any more comments.

The difference between ST38 up to ST59 is +3 damage . The ST damage chart levels out to so damage isn't the biggest consideration here. The differences for ST20+ are in Characters under Injury in Stun. Basically having a multiple of 10 higher than 10 multiplies healing (so ST20 get 2 HP anywhere ST10 would get 1HP, ST30 gets 3, etc.) and divides shock (so ST20 halves shock, ST30 divides by 3).

Your other stats seem fine. IQ would probably be higher among some chapters and among senior officers, chaplains and librarians.

Agreed. I was considering this more of a scout template.

Why is Hard To Kill unnecessary? Assuming HT 14-16, it's very useful, especially when he reaches multiple minus HP.

Penalties for HT checks affect consciousness but not death. If you have HT14 and Very Fit (something I forgot to mention should be in the template) they will always pass death checks on anything but a 17+ (which is automatic failure anyway).

Slow Regen is a must IMHO, simply due to its universal aspect among Space Marines.

No problem. Just keep in mind Marines with ST20 will heal 2 HP every twelve hours in addition to normal healing.

What do you suggest for hearing?

IIRC (and it's dubious 'cause I haven't read the fluff for a long time) they can hear in the same range as a dog. Ultrahearing?

Temperature Tolerance is probably too high, yeah. I'm european, so I'm not used to F degrees. How much would you suggest?
Radiation Tolerance could be reduced to 2?

I'm not good with Rad Tolerance since I hardly use Rad rules.

For temperature tolerance 2 levels will allow them to survive (HT14) 11F (-12C) to 118F (48C).

[Tema69]

Okay, I read up on that ST20+ rule. You're right, ST20 seems fitting. I'd say that using the 10% increment, ST30 is probably the highest (or among highest), while 24-25 is the average for a well-rounded and "semi-experienced" Tac Marine.

Hard to Kill goes, I understand your point.

Won't they heal 2 HP every 24 hours instead of 1 HP every 24 hours (as standard)? On top of Slow Regen (which now heals 2 HP every 12 hours, right?).
As for "high" regen/healing, I think it's okay, because Marine regeneration is somewhere in between "regular" and "healing HP by the hour/minute/second". So actually healing 2-4 HP per 12 hours seems fine. That'll heal most "injuries" in a day or so, while "wounds" will take longer time. One thing I did notice in the Graham McNeill books was that the regeneration capabilities would "slow down considerably" when they were seriously wounded... I'm thinking that perhaps some sort of limitation to Regeneration like "Only while between 0 and max HP" ?

I don't remember anything that would be similar to Ultrahearing though?

Let's just say Rad Tolerance 2 (the armour has 5 in addition), which divides incoming radiation by 10 total. Assuming some skilled apothecaries if they get severely irradiated, and where good to go.

TT2 seems good, yeah.

---

Also, stealing from Perfect Organism's Template and ed_209a's ideas, I'd suggest we add:
Social Regard (Feared) 2 [10]
Alcohol Tolerance [1]
Religious Ritual (Chapter)
Brawling
Savoir-Faire (Military)

...and reading on Fanaticism, I'd suggest that Extreme Fanaticism might be the norm, with "regular" Fanaticism applying to more... mentally versatile Marines.

Edit: Also the idea of using a Perk to represent the Black Carapace's interface is a good idea IMO. I gotta read up on whether or not a Marine qualifies for DR (Black Carapace and Ossmodula). Any thoughts?