111 "Intervention" Explanations

Acolyte · 10-10-2009, 01:46 PM

Well done, sir!

Another less satisfying response is simply that 666 is traditionally associated with Hell, and 111 is in terms of the dice mechanic the completely inverted but still randomly obtained response. This has the disadvantage of operating outside the conceit of the game as opposed to within it, which doesn't please me (one of my favorite thing about IN is that for virtually every stat that describes your PC, your PC and you would describe it the same, "I am a 9-Force angel," or "I have three ranks in the Celestial Song of Charm" or "I possess the Smite Servitor Attunement").

Yet another response is that since rolling a 111 represents the intervention of God, and God is defined in IN as the consciousness of Creation itself, the Symphony, the three 1s stand for the three separate-but-not-separate realms that make up the Symphony (the Celestial, Ethereal, and Corporeal realms), which form a Trinity from the Symphony. You could even go so far as to say the Triune Godhead of Catholicism (and many other Christian sects) is the same as the tripartite division of the Symphony, with Christ being the ideal human, the Holy Spirit the ideal ethereal, and God the Father being the ideal celestial.

Of course, that could just be a popular heresy held by devout Catholics exposed to the War, like the Purificators. *wink*

Dalillama · 10-10-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acolyte

Well done, sir!

Another less satisfying response is simply that 666 is traditionally associated with Hell, and 111 is in terms of the dice mechanic the completely inverted but still randomly obtained response. This has the disadvantage of operating outside the conceit of the game as opposed to within it, which doesn't please me (one of my favorite thing about IN is that for virtually every stat that describes your PC, your PC and you would describe it the same, "I am a 9-Force angel," or "I have three ranks in the Celestial Song of Charm" or "I possess the Smite Servitor Attunement").

This is the real reason, AFAICT. The 666 thing is very populaly associated w/ Hell/the Devil, regardless of the theology, and 111 is the other extreme roll on 3d6. (Also, I don't think that characters describe their skills (or Songs) w/ ranks/levels any more than they do in any other settings).

ISNorden · 10-11-2009, 12:57 AM

Good "game theology" arguments, although I personally believe that if 111 = intervention by the One God and 666 = intervention by Satan, then a game that allows Ethereal Interventions should use a distinct number to represent those. The Marches are neither Heaven nor Hell, the spirits living there are neither Divine nor Infernal; so the "in-between" number 333 seems to make the most game sense.

For what it's worth, most of the Ethereal Interventions I've rolled have been just plain strange warpings of reality which didn't favor either side in the War: some were encounters with ghosts or pagan spirits, some were lucky shots by NPCs who were committed to another religion, and some were Songs that ended up with strange side effects. (A mundane who rolled an Ethereal Intervention on a skill might have a superstition or strong cultural belief come true: on a Driving roll, he might crash after swerving to avoid a black cat, or narrowly avoid crashing because of the rabbit's foot he carried.)

tHEhERETIC · 10-11-2009, 08:05 AM

My two cents:

When I rolled a 666 in the middle of a chat game (much to my chagrin!) it wasn't Satan who showed up to Intervene, it was a Demon Prince. I've had to do logical backflips to explain why he was there and it ultimately came to almost nothing, but that's how I interpreted it. So the question of the Ultimate Divine remains a question, at least in my game.

Damned philosophy degree...

Jason · 10-11-2009, 09:05 AM

I think it's funny that the Corporeal/Ethereal/Celestial division didn't occur to me until fairly late in the process of googling stuff, but that is indeed a much more neutral and sensible way of explaining the 111 result to newcomers. Still, I feel like it loses a bit of the "ineffability of the divine" that you get in trying to explain the meaningfulness of a 111 through religiously-themed "numerology."

Given that, part of the reason I was looking to think up explanations for "favorable interventions" on a 111 is that I'd like to run an ethereals one-shot at some point, with pre-gen PCs we'll never use again, and without much (or perhaps any) direct reference to angels. Why would God intervene upon the quest of some Marches backwater domain? If you want to look at it canonically, you could say that we know "out of character" that every 111 intervention DOES represent the intervention of the Lord/perfection of the Symphony for some ineffable reason, but I was hoping to come up with some "in character" way that my ethereal PCs would understand the results of their own 111 rolls.

That said, I really like the idea of a 333 result representing superstitions coming true, with no direct "intervention" in the War either way. Makes super great sense in a mixed ethereals/celestials game.

Regis · 10-11-2009, 03:30 PM

See, the way I'd run it, Interventions aren't obvious things. They're now always subtle, but they are the sort of thing that might just be a bit of good or bad luck. Sometimes help really is just around the corner. Sometimes you walk down the wrong street. There's not even a real assumption that God or Lucifer are responsible on an OOC basis. A divine or infernal intervention simply means that something has happened that has attracted the attention of one side or another in the war, in a particularly intense manner. And if you don't want your own side to know what you're doing, sometimes you don't want the 'best result'. I also use 333 as a sign of an Ethereal intervention, something that attracts other forces to the area.

Example cases:

Mortals game. A Soldier rolls 666, and bumps into a Balseraph of Fate, who starts talking to her and trying to sell her on the other side. She rolls another 666 while trying to resist his resonance, and is instantly possessed by the Shedim of Fate that is acting as this Balseraph's minion.

Angels game. An NPC Malakite of Novalis, who has become disillusioned by the pacifism preached by her Superior, finally makes the decision to apply for a transfer to serve Michael. Another player rolls a 111 on an insignificant roll - and Michael himself shows up to accept her oath.

Angels game. Far in the past, a demon is sniffing around a pub somewhere near Babylon. We roll a 333, and Enkidu (see wikipedia) shows up and stabs it, before asking us what we are and what we're doing here.

Other interventions might lead to sudden insights into the nature of what's happening, accurate or inaccurate, helpful or not, depending on the nature of the intervention rolled. They might simply act as a critical success or failure, depending on how one wants to play it.

To me, the question in IN isn't about whether or not God exists. The question is what that existence means. Is God a trinity? Does God endorse one religion over another? Does God even notice us any more? Is God actually good in any meaningful sense of the word?

10-10-2009, 01:46 PM	#1
Acolyte Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Seattle	Re: 111 "Intervention" Explanations Well done, sir! Another less satisfying response is simply that 666 is traditionally associated with Hell, and 111 is in terms of the dice mechanic the completely inverted but still randomly obtained response. This has the disadvantage of operating outside the conceit of the game as opposed to within it, which doesn't please me (one of my favorite thing about IN is that for virtually every stat that describes your PC, your PC and you would describe it the same, "I am a 9-Force angel," or "I have three ranks in the Celestial Song of Charm" or "I possess the Smite Servitor Attunement"). Yet another response is that since rolling a 111 represents the intervention of God, and God is defined in IN as the consciousness of Creation itself, the Symphony, the three 1s stand for the three separate-but-not-separate realms that make up the Symphony (the Celestial, Ethereal, and Corporeal realms), which form a Trinity from the Symphony. You could even go so far as to say the Triune Godhead of Catholicism (and many other Christian sects) is the same as the tripartite division of the Symphony, with Christ being the ideal human, the Holy Spirit the ideal ethereal, and God the Father being the ideal celestial. Of course, that could just be a popular heresy held by devout Catholics exposed to the War, like the Purificators. wink __________________ “The world is going to Hell in a hand-basket, but I’ve got Good News: I saved my soul by switching to Heaven.” —Baruel, former Djinn of the Media, now Cherub of Destiny and the Angel of Good News

10-11-2009, 12:57 AM	#3
ISNorden Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Madison, WI	Re: 111 "Intervention" Explanations Good "game theology" arguments, although I personally believe that if 111 = intervention by the One God and 666 = intervention by Satan, then a game that allows Ethereal Interventions should use a distinct number to represent those. The Marches are neither Heaven nor Hell, the spirits living there are neither Divine nor Infernal; so the "in-between" number 333 seems to make the most game sense. For what it's worth, most of the Ethereal Interventions I've rolled have been just plain strange warpings of reality which didn't favor either side in the War: some were encounters with ghosts or pagan spirits, some were lucky shots by NPCs who were committed to another religion, and some were Songs that ended up with strange side effects. (A mundane who rolled an Ethereal Intervention on a skill might have a superstition or strong cultural belief come true: on a Driving roll, he might crash after swerving to avoid a black cat, or narrowly avoid crashing because of the rabbit's foot he carried.) __________________ Ingeborg S. Nordén

10-11-2009, 08:05 AM	#4
tHEhERETIC MIB Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Life imitates art--I'm in Pohang	Re: 111 "Intervention" Explanations My two cents: When I rolled a 666 in the middle of a chat game (much to my chagrin!) it wasn't Satan who showed up to Intervene, it was a Demon Prince. I've had to do logical backflips to explain why he was there and it ultimately came to almost nothing, but that's how I interpreted it. So the question of the Ultimate Divine remains a question, at least in my game. Damned philosophy degree... __________________ Criminy...these two have enough issues, they can sell subscriptions! (ladyarcana55, in a PM)

10-11-2009, 09:05 AM	#5
Jason Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Boston, MA	Re: 111 "Intervention" Explanations I think it's funny that the Corporeal/Ethereal/Celestial division didn't occur to me until fairly late in the process of googling stuff, but that is indeed a much more neutral and sensible way of explaining the 111 result to newcomers. Still, I feel like it loses a bit of the "ineffability of the divine" that you get in trying to explain the meaningfulness of a 111 through religiously-themed "numerology." Given that, part of the reason I was looking to think up explanations for "favorable interventions" on a 111 is that I'd like to run an ethereals one-shot at some point, with pre-gen PCs we'll never use again, and without much (or perhaps any) direct reference to angels. Why would God intervene upon the quest of some Marches backwater domain? If you want to look at it canonically, you could say that we know "out of character" that every 111 intervention DOES represent the intervention of the Lord/perfection of the Symphony for some ineffable reason, but I was hoping to come up with some "in character" way that my ethereal PCs would understand the results of their own 111 rolls. That said, I really like the idea of a 333 result representing superstitions coming true, with no direct "intervention" in the War either way. Makes super great sense in a mixed ethereals/celestials game.

10-11-2009, 03:30 PM	#6
Regis Join Date: Sep 2009	Re: 111 "Intervention" Explanations See, the way I'd run it, Interventions aren't obvious things. They're now always subtle, but they are the sort of thing that might just be a bit of good or bad luck. Sometimes help really is just around the corner. Sometimes you walk down the wrong street. There's not even a real assumption that God or Lucifer are responsible on an OOC basis. A divine or infernal intervention simply means that something has happened that has attracted the attention of one side or another in the war, in a particularly intense manner. And if you don't want your own side to know what you're doing, sometimes you don't want the 'best result'. I also use 333 as a sign of an Ethereal intervention, something that attracts other forces to the area. Example cases: Mortals game. A Soldier rolls 666, and bumps into a Balseraph of Fate, who starts talking to her and trying to sell her on the other side. She rolls another 666 while trying to resist his resonance, and is instantly possessed by the Shedim of Fate that is acting as this Balseraph's minion. Angels game. An NPC Malakite of Novalis, who has become disillusioned by the pacifism preached by her Superior, finally makes the decision to apply for a transfer to serve Michael. Another player rolls a 111 on an insignificant roll - and Michael himself shows up to accept her oath. Angels game. Far in the past, a demon is sniffing around a pub somewhere near Babylon. We roll a 333, and Enkidu (see wikipedia) shows up and stabs it, before asking us what we are and what we're doing here. Other interventions might lead to sudden insights into the nature of what's happening, accurate or inaccurate, helpful or not, depending on the nature of the intervention rolled. They might simply act as a critical success or failure, depending on how one wants to play it. To me, the question in IN isn't about whether or not God exists. The question is what that existence means. Is God a trinity? Does God endorse one religion over another? Does God even notice us any more? Is God actually good in any meaningful sense of the word?