Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I think if you know that they drain the blood of innocent victims, that would overcome any xenophilic tendencies.

Xenophilia specifically mentions being friendly to glaring foreign soldiers, cute vampires, and tentacled cosmic horrors. Angry-looking foreign soldiers are pretty easy to assume as dangerous, you'd have to have lived in cave your entire life to not know what vampires do to live, and anyone could tell that some cthulhu-spawn is probably not entirely safe to be around. A Xenophile, however, doesn't. Now, if those soldiers start agitating for a fight, that vampire goes to try to feed on someone, or that tentacled horror starts getting a little too personal, someone with Xenophilia could GTFO, but they're not going to assume they're going to do that just because some other similar being did something bad, any more than they would assue some human is going to hurt them because some other human mugged them last week.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

What are you talking about? I'm referring to Quirks, Page 162 ->

And I agreed with you that you can't have more than 5. I'm disagree with the "free"

in 3e they were free in the fact choosing to take all 5 would not effect you other choices. as they did not count against the disadvantaged limit.

but in 4e the do count against the limit, so they not free they of an opportunity cost.

(assuming you are using the limit at all)

[Ragitsu]

Originally Posted by Wraithe

23 (and counting) pages of this. I kinnae take it.

Only six pages here. Do people really like having more pages than they need ;-)?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

Only six pages here. Do people really like having more pages than they need ;-)?

hence if you want to comment on the size of the tread you use post count (top right of each post) not the variable page count.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Wraithe

23 (and counting) pages of this. I kinnae take it.

I think the OP has already been answered: "Because it makes you more inclined to be friendly with people/creatures/laws considered to be 'outsiders'".

More than one line of thought has emerged, actually. Some impute the non-RAW social considerations, others suggest that the 'getting along' in the description is supposed to go only one-way.

It's a quirk because it's a minor disadvantage,...

If only it had not been written to reflect only benefits.

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

I've always wondered this, especially in a "normal" TL8 type setting (such as our Earth).

Sorry, don't mean to add to it, but I wanted to point out, that "normal" TL8 society still contains a lot of prejudices, which would cause broad-minded to come into play. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of places where the simple phrase:

"Ahh, the Yankees are an okay team of fellas*" could get you in a fair amount of trouble.

*for folks across the pond, please substitute "Arsenal" for "Yankees". :)

I think until you're in an Utopian society, where there are no prejudices, Broad-Minded is still a Quirk, worth -1. And I'm betting the adventures there are a bit slow. :)

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

hence if you want to comment on the size of the tread you use post count (top right of each post) not the variable page count.

Noted, I shall bemoan using these in the future. Thanks for mention that. :)

[Ragitsu]

Originally Posted by Wraithe

I think until you're in an Utopian society, where there are no prejudices, Broad-Minded is still a Quirk, worth -1. And I'm betting the adventures there are a bit slow. :)

Then why is Chauvinistic worth a -1 in society where prejudice still flourishes? How serious does a view on a subject have to be before it's considered a prejudice anyhow?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Xenophilia specifically mentions being friendly to glaring foreign soldiers, cute vampires, and tentacled cosmic horrors. Angry-looking foreign soldiers are pretty easy to assume as dangerous, you'd have to have lived in cave your entire life to not know what vampires do to live, and anyone could tell that some cthulhu-spawn is probably not entirely safe to be around. A Xenophile, however, doesn't.

There is no reason to assume the Xenophile is blind to dangers. Skiing involves risk, but Skiophiles still do it.

In the description, the motivation specified is fascination and attraction to aliens and strangers. It says you'll serve this motivation despite 'how dangerous or frightening they appear to be'. The way this motivation is served behaviourily is specified -- when you fail a self control roll, you assume they are interested in socializing with you (and presumably will act on that assumption).

Not one word there says you are blind to any feature, that you believe what they say, that you ascribe any qualities to them (other than situational sociability). It says that even if they appear dangerous or frightening you find them attractive and fascinating, NOT safe and trustworthy.

Now, if those soldiers start agitating for a fight, that vampire goes to try to feed on someone, or that tentacled horror starts getting a little too personal, someone with Xenophilia could GTFO, but they're not going to assume they're going to do that just because some other similar being did something bad, any more than they would assue some human is going to hurt them because some other human mugged them last week.

I fully agree with that.

{Edit, Retract: On reflection, I realize that I was merely agreeing about assumptions because of my own assumptions. It turns out I was wrong to agree with you. Xenophilia, as described, does not actually contain the implications of broadmindedness. Even I got confused by the careless representations in Broadminded and allowed them to speciously colour my view of Xenophilia.

If we look closely however, it can be seen that going by the straight RAW on Xenophilia, it's perfectly possible for a character to think "All vampires are bad, there is no such thing as a good vampire or even a neutral vampire, but golly they turn me on!" and still discharge the behaviours required of Xenophilia.}

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

"It's a quirk because it's a minor disadvantage,..."

If only it had not been written to reflect only benefits.

Do you really think it was needed to point all possible drawbacks? Then Basic Set: Characters book would be 50% larger in number of pages, full of obvious nuances -as the drawbacks of this Quirk. And points like this have been elaborated earlier in this thread.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

However, in the post you are replying to, I had referred to the common, present day usage of broadminded, in the context of how SJG had chosen to name the trait.

Remember, GURPS is a generic universal etc system. Tying this Quirk to its present day "usual" acceptation (for the dominant progressive and globalist ideology) is your interpretation of this trait, and by doing it you're making non-generic assumptions and picking a very specific setting: the modern-day world.

What you're doing isn't generic, but the RAW is (or at least, it tries).

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

We are discussing the word 'broadminded'. Since it implies an improved condition from the norm, or baseline, a trait based on it would be expected to be beneficial -- hence a Perk rather than a Quirk.

Broadminded doesn't implies an improved condition from the norm.

Your utter convinction of this Quirk as an objective virtue or as an uncontestable positive trait is the underlying reason making this thread to grow.

The game mechanics discussion and how the Quirk description "should have been written"... are shots into the air: nothing of it grazes your underlying reason.

So I think this should be emphasized:

Broadminded sometimes is the mark of someone who is mentally lost a relativistic view world -hence, objective truth(s) is(are) denied to his understanding. Sometimes it's suited for people who are intellectually unsure, or morally lukewarm. Broadminded can be the mark of potential traitors when the setting is a culture needing protection from foreign influence threatening with ritual taint and/or subtle colonization. This still is a current issue, BTW. There's nothing advantageous in a person being unwilling to protect himself and his people from ethnocide and culturecide.

And there are times where being broadminded is a good thing if you are immersed in a setting where most values are questionable (Socrates' place & epoch), when there're good reasons for putting in doubt the view world, or when you're a member of an isolated town armored with prejudices rooted in pure ignorance, and there is need of someone able to break the frontiers to open a worthwhile contact with foreigners.

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

Once again, it should be brought up that Broad-Minded does not mean "gullible" or "stupid".

Sometimes it makes people gullible or stupid "in a trivial form" (BS, p. 163), enough for trusting in potentially hostile people (or creatures). Sometimes makes people smart enough for breaking groundless barriers. It isn't a straightforward possitive trait, nor by common sense nor by moral standards.

GURPS broad-minded trait is positive or negative, advantageous or not, above the norm or under the norm depending of the GM/players' assumptions & campaign setting. "Broad-minded" makes sense being classified as a Quirk and not as a Perk because that keeps the trait approximately in a state of indetermination. That is suitable because it's too variable and relative.