Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk? - Page 22

~~Figleaf23~~ · 10-09-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Would you consider a foreign soldier glaring at you to be a clear danger signal?

Personally, for purposes of this issue, no I wouldn't. I'd say a Xenophile would not assume that a glaring appearance is necessarily dangerous -- maybe that's the natural expression for those folks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

... sure, if you know that particular individual has been leaving a string of bodies behind them, or is currently engaged in attacking your village, then you are in character to react like that. But the quirk means that you generally will not classify, say, a vampire as a potential threat any more than another human.

I think if you know that they drain the blood of innocent victims, that would overcome any xenophilic tendencies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Yes, it does. Xenophile is a disadvantage that requires you to be stupid (if you fail your self control roll) when dealing with strangers and aliens.

Nope. It requires you to be affable with strangers and aliens, not stupid.

Brandy · 10-09-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I think if you know that they drain the blood of innocent victims, that would overcome any xenophilic tendencies.

This is the disconnect, I think. I'm imagining the Discworld. A broad-minded person would probably give a vampire whose feeding habits are unknown the benefit of the doubt.

"Oooh, its such a rainy night. We orght to go and ask at that castle if we can stay the night."

"But Mum, they say a vampire lives there!"

"Oh, well, it takes all sorts don't it? Can't help the way we're made. Here's a good lad, go and knock on the door."

~~Figleaf23~~ · 10-09-2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenclary

... your entire argument seems to be based on the insistence that your interpretation was the designer's choice.

Obviously at some point, a designer wrote the description and presumably an editor agreed. I suspect there has been no active choice applied to the quirk ever since that time (GURPS: Uplift, I think).

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I think _everything else the book(s) have to say about the matter_ is at odds with that.

At odds with what, exactly? I think the vast preponderance of the rules is at odds with having a Quirk be beneficial, which has led me to the conclusion that Broadminded as written is a mistake of some kind.

Quote:

... designers had a less-than-perfect choice of wording in "You get along well with other races and species..."

I certainly agree that the wording makes for a wrong-headed Quirk.

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You are confusing moral good with gaming advantage. "Being a jerk" can, in real life and in a game, lead to success.

I think I would split a hair on that -- Not caring about how people feel about doing whatever it takes to be successful can lead to success. But being a jerk in and of itselfdoes you no good. Like being callous -- being callous and pushing past those in line for medical treatment will get you treated quicker. Being callous, laughing at the wounded while you wait in line with them gets you nowhere.

Quote:

Regardless, a player choosing to limit their character to "not being a jerk" is still a limiting roleplaying trait, and completely within the intention of Quirks.

Once again -- it is not a limitation to be prevented from doing something that is not desireable from a player/character point of view. This is axiomatic GURPS. I can't get points for a Disad like -'Never loses track of his wallet'. This confines choices, but in a way that is simply not disadvantageous.

David Johnston2 · 10-09-2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Nope. It requires you to be affable with strangers and aliens, not stupid.

And what do you think the 10 points is for?

~~Figleaf23~~ · 10-09-2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

And what do you think the 10 points is for?

See p. B162.

David Johnston2 · 10-09-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

See p. B162.

Page B162 doesn't say that Xenophilia doesn't make you stupid.

carllarson · 10-09-2009, 06:41 PM

Here we go:

Broad-Minded is a quirk because it limits your choices in a minimal manner.

"'Nuff said."

kenclary · 10-09-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Obviously at some point, a designer wrote the description and presumably an editor agreed.

It is obvious that it was written and edited, but not at all obvious that the designer/editor agreed with _your_ opinion on what Broad-Minded means. Designers and editors also put the quirk into the chapter, wrote Xenophilia, and headed the trait with "trivial form of Xenophilia", all keeping in mind the definition and purpose of quirks.

Quote:

At odds with what, exactly? I think the vast preponderance of the rules is at odds with having a Quirk be beneficial, which has led me to the conclusion that Broadminded as written is a mistake of some kind.

...

I certainly agree that the wording makes for a wrong-headed Quirk.

Indeed. However, the quirk is only problematic if your assumption that it was intended to be beneficial is correct. I don't think your assumption is correct, therefore I think the problem is, at worst, a simple minor writing error.

Broad-Minded was intended to be a quirk, written as a quirk, and priced like a quirk. If it were intended to have the beneficial effect you seem to think it is written to have, it would not be a perk; instead it would be an full advantage: probably some sort of Cosmic Charisma limited to other species/races. If was the intention of the designers (or of the 4e editors), they wouldn't have mistaken it for a quirk.

Quote:

I think I would split a hair on that -- Not caring about how people feel about doing whatever it takes to be successful can lead to success. But being a jerk in and of itselfdoes you no good. Like being callous -- being callous and pushing past those in line for medical treatment will get you treated quicker. Being callous, laughing at the wounded while you wait in line with them gets you nowhere.

It could impress an Intolerant Overlord who is watching, leading to your promotion in the ranks of his oppressive secret police. It could provoke your social rival into violence, allowing you to get them arrested. If the right people are watching, it could get you a lucrative job in talk radio. This hair splitting is a false dichotomy. :)

Quote:

Once again -- it is not a limitation to be prevented from doing something that is not desireable from a player/character point of view. This is axiomatic GURPS. I can't get points for a Disad like -'Never loses track of his wallet'. This confines choices, but in a way that is simply not disadvantageous.

Yet, the desire to do a thing varies with the situation.

Also, "Never loses track of his wallet" would be a perk; "pack rat: dislikes throwing away personal effects" would be a quirk.

~~Figleaf23~~ · 10-09-2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Page B162 doesn't say that Xenophilia doesn't make you stupid.

It also fails to mention that Xenophilia won't give you a million dollars.

David Johnston2 · 10-09-2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

It also fails to mention that Xenophilia won't give you a million dollars.

This is true. So we return to the question. Why do you think they have Xenophilia be worth points?

10-09-2009, 06:41 PM	#217
carllarson Join Date: Feb 2005	Re: Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk? Here we go: Broad-Minded is a quirk because it limits your choices in a minimal manner. "'Nuff said."