Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...
Aside from your commitment to stripping usable specificity from as many words as possible...

I'm tired of responding to ill-spirited sniping like that.

If you can't carry on a discussion without taking shots at me, then welcome to my ignore list.

[nerdvana]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Well, certainly I'm merely speculating, but I recall that the first time I saw Broadminded offered as a quirk (1) it was before perks were invented and (b) it was accompanied by a variety of other badly designed beneficial quirks (only Broadminded and Attententive seem to have carried over to 4e.). This makes me think that there was a period when the designers were operating under a confused or skewed approach to Quirks wherein some were effectively doing double duty as perks. In 4e the concept was re-clarified, but Broadminded and Attentive survived inadvertently.

Attentive is not universally beneficial. Sure, you get a +1 when working on lengthy tasks, but it comes with a -3 penalty to any chance to notice an important interruption (like when the bad guys come into the lab you are working in and you aught to duck!), so using Attentive in this argument is fallacious.

Same with Broadminded simply because it is a contract with the GM that the player makes.... "If I don't do X often enough to satisfy you, you can dock me XP for not RPing my character properly." This is similar to but different then the contract that you make taking High Heeled Heroine which reads "I've spend this point so you can't make me fail to look cool and stylish in my steletto heels".

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I'm tired of responding to ill-spirited sniping like that.

If you can't carry on a discussion without taking shots at me, then welcome to my ignore list.

I agree that attacks on character should be kept out of discussions.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Mehmet

1- No 1 point Perk could guarantee "all alien things will get along with you as well as you get along with them" so the arguments that Broadminded has to be a Perk is void...

I note that the description does not say 'all', nor does it say 'as well as'. It's vague, but it's beneficial, so it should not be a Quirk. I think conceptually the described benefits would make an okay perk, but would do well to be written more specifically.

2- If the character faces an obviously (note the emulated narrow mindedness here) dangerous being, say, some pale bloke with long canine teeth and with a disturbing habit of speaking in a hissing voice, and if the character is NOT knowledgable about vampires, Broadmindedness requires him (Note the limitation in behaviour) to approach this character with, well, broadmindedness.

That's you'd think it should do, bearing in mind that it's supposed to be less bothersome than Xenophilia. I suppose in a future edition the text could be amended to reflect this better approach.

So no "I suspect this thing is going to mind trick me and drink my blood so I'm cautios, not making an eye contact and my hand is on my sword-hilt" kind of measures.

Well, the concept of Xenophilia does not require Gullibility. You are required to be attracted to their strangeness, but there is no requirement to ignore clear danger signals.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by nerdvana

Attentive is not universally beneficial. Sure, you get a +1 when working on lengthy tasks, but it comes with a -3 penalty to any chance to notice an important interruption (like when the bad guys come into the lab you are working in and you aught to duck!), so using Attentive in this argument is fallacious.

We have already touched on Attentive in this discussion. It appears to be a scaled down version of Single-minded, which is an Advantage offering +3 and -5. If that is a 5 point advantage, it makes no sense that something the same but just lesser should convert to a GIVING you points.

So it's not fallacious at all.

Same with Broadminded ...

Except that's not supported by the descriptive text of this trait.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Look at the description. It says you get along. It says you don't freak out. I reject as absurd the suggestion that reading the plain meaning of the words is a 'misinterpretation'.

It really seems like you're not so much interested in how the quirk is supposed to work, so much as interested in winning an argument about semantics on the internet. The example I gave was not a "house rule," it was an example of how the traits in question are intended to behave in-play, without some rules-lawyering semantic arguments. I certainly can't claim to be able to peer into the minds of the people at SJGames, yet considering the vast amount of context, I still feel quite confident in saying that it is not intended to work the way you are interpreting it.

If you think the example I gave is not a good example of how the various levels of Xenophilia (Including Broad-Minded) are supposed to be played, maybe you should give an example of your own? Guy walks into a bar, sees a freaky tentacled alien monstrosity sitting at the bar, and nobody else is there. How do Mr Xenophilia, Mr Broad-Minded, and Mr Joe-Normal react?

Also:

Well, certainly I'm merely speculating, but I recall that the first time I saw Broadminded offered as a quirk (1) it was before perks were invented and (b) it was accompanied by a variety of other badly designed beneficial quirks (only Broadminded and Attententive seem to have carried over to 4e.). This makes me think that there was a period when the designers were operating under a confused or skewed approach to Quirks wherein some were effectively doing double duty as perks. In 4e the concept was re-clarified, but Broadminded and Attentive survived inadvertently.

You didn't answer the question, though. Which of those ways do you think Broad-Minded is intended to work in 4e?

And I find it completely absurd that Attentive would be considered a "beneficial" quirk in the adventurer style that the rules were primarily designed for. An Attentive catburgler will be unlikely to notice guards on patrol while he's trying to crack the safe. A warrior doing maintenance on his weapons is so focused on getting the blade perfect that he'd be unlikely to notice someone sneaking up on the camp. The soldier doing first-aid on a badly-injured buddy probably doesn't notice the enemy soldier coming up to the doorway beside him and leveling his weapon, and certainly doesn't hear him before that. It even gets annoying enough in real-life. Picture the person so focused on texting on their cellphone that they could easily miss you addressing them loudly, by name, not 5 feet away.

Getting a +1 bonus to long tasks (Which generally, is not that big of a deal anyway) is only nice until it gets you stabbed in the back. Suffering a full -3 to all perception rolls any time you try to do something longer than a couple seconds is bad for your survival.

[nerdvana]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Except that's not supported by the descriptive text of this trait.

That's exactly right, it is not in the descriptive text of the trait... because it doesn't have to be. It is expressly explained in the introductory text about mental quirks on p162 (providing a quote...)

Originally Posted by RAW, p162

Mental quirks are minor personality traits. They are a contract between you and the GM: "I agree to roleplay these character foibles. In return, you agree to give me a few extra points to spend."

Since they put that text there, why would they need to duplicate it in every mental quirk? That's why they put it in the introductory text...

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

It appears to be a scaled down version of Single-minded, which is an Advantage offering +3 and -5. If that is a 5 point advantage, it makes no sense that something the same but just lesser should convert to a GIVING you points.

Pretty sure the difference between Single-Minded and Attentive (Which, as an asside, could probably do to have their names reversed for clarity) is that with Single-Minded, you can choose to focus exclusively on something, while with Attentive, you have to focus. That's a huge difference.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

So a PC has no obligation to fit the norms of his setting, is that what you're saying?

No, I don't know where you get that idea. It seems kind of opposite to what I've been saying. I suggest you have a quick re-read of the thread.

If that is the case, where is a game like GURPS suppose to start?

Exactly. You need to direct this question to certain other interlocutors on this thread.

Lets take a case study. The players need to infiltrate the ranks of a social group noted for their intolerance of others. The player who's character is Broad-Minded is the best suited for the infiltration and, though not the only one who could, ends up being the one who infiltrates the group. As play progresses, even when not around the group being infiltrated, the player shows a distinct lack of Broad-Mindedness.

1. Note that your example shows a character being selected because of the presumed BENEFITS of Broadmindedness, i.e. the facets that I suggess preclude it from being a Quirk.

2. It's odd that the character displays a "lack of Broadmindedness" (in that he doesn't get along with strangers and he reacts badly to their funny looks) even though the trait clearly excuses him from this problem. Why would he do that?

Finally, Broad-Minded only tells you, the player, how your character behaves with regard to a specific type of situation. This is not worthy of a perk.

If you read the description, you will actually see that rather than merely saying what the character tends to do, it prescribes outcomes -- you get along with other and you are not too troubled if they look strange. These are written as beneficial rather than limiting, so the trait should not be considered a Quirk.

Where does it say how other people are affected by it?

It provides no mechanic.

Since it restricts your behaviour...

To the extent it can be seen to restrict behaviour (the text doesn't really go very far in this direction), it restricts to behaviour that is only beneficial. It's like saying making a quirk that says you don't like shooting yourself in the foot -- not a real problem.

How does it differ significantly from Humble, or Responsive? What about the fact that Quirks don't have to be a disadvantage to the character?

The behaviour defined in those quirks it not inately beneficial to the character, and they don't indicate outcomes the way Broadminded does, and they don't include any minor exemption kneejerk reactions like the description of Broadminded does.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Pretty sure the difference between Single-Minded and Attentive (Which, as an asside, could probably do to have their names reversed for clarity) is that with Single-Minded, you can choose to focus exclusively on something, while with Attentive, you have to focus. That's a huge difference.

I don't really think it's that much of a difference, for two reasons -- first, it's not clear from the text that engaging Single-minded is optional (though that's how I would rule it). Second, you have a defacto option with Attentive anyway, simply by choosing not embarking on that kind of task at inconvenient times.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Second, you have a defacto option with Attentive anyway, simply by choosing not embarking on that kind of task at inconvenient times.

Which limits when and where you perform long tasks. That's still disadvantageous compared to an un-quirked character.