Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

?????

I fail to see what that has to do with this subject.

Everything, pretty much. In a generic system, you can't say what the norm for a setting is. So instead you define what the norm for the game is, which is that a character with no disadvantages doesn't have to play their character any particular why, or stick to playing it a particular why. The character could be played one session as an intolerant jerk, the next as a selfless saint and not get any points docked for bad roleplaying. Add a disadvantage, and the character can be docked points for not playing his disadvantages. Broad-Minded isn't the only Quirk without mechanics associated with it, Likes for instance.

However, Basic describes Quirks as not necessarily being a disadvantage, only that the GM is free to dock points if you don't roleplay it enough.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Ah! So, you agree then, that there is a basic or inherent level of narrowmindedness at work on a general basis?

No. Even if only a minority are intolerant they will still react negatively to your lack of intolerance when you show it, and you are more likely to show it when only a minority are intolerant since the reason why Broadminded is only a quirk is because you can exercise more of a sense of self-preservation in regard to it than a true Xenophile can. But Broadminded is not a perk. You do not get any kind of bonus for dealing with other races for having it. It's just something you roleplay.

Oh, BTW, your justification for Broadmindedness being disadvantageous (the negative views of the non-Broadminded), is not alluded to at all in the Xenophilia description which you were pointing earlier.

I don't care. It would be insane to expect someone who was Intolerant of aliens or a Fanatic demon hunter or whatever to regard a Xenophile with anything better than scorn. Nor is that my "justification". That Broadminded people will behave like toned down Xenophiles is dangerous in itself.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Baseline is not being used strangely, just not in the technical sense you describe there.

There will be, in any setting, a prevalent degree of any given quality you care to name among the population. Sometimes this comes from the game system, sometimes from the setting design.

Ok. So, if it would be correct that by 'baseline' you mean 'cultural baseline for the setting', going way back, you said:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Unless modified, a PC is a baseline character with baseline levels of narrowmindedness, whatever they may be, as for example, whatever the rules assumed when they wrote 'strange looks rarely bother you'.

Which is simply not true, any more than an early 20th century American character is addicted to tobacco by default. You only have the disadvantages that are actually on your character sheet, regardless of which ones happen to be popular among the NPCs.

Also:

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

We are discussing the word 'broadminded'. Since it implies an improved condition from the norm, or baseline, a trait based on it would be expected to be beneficial -- hence a Perk rather than a Quirk.

Being 'better' than the social norm does not constitute an Advantage relative to the default state of a PC.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No. Even if only a minority are intolerant they will still react negatively to your lack of intolerance when you show it, ...

Even if it only arises from a portion of the people and only rises to some particular level, that portion and that level must, by definition, represent the prevalence in the society. If it were zero, then your version of Broadminded's drawback (social oprobrium) could not apply.

... the reason why Broadminded is only a quirk is because you can exercise more of a sense of self-preservation in regard to it than a true Xenophile can.

The description of Xenophile makes no reference whatsoever to this social implication you are proposing to impute into Broadminded.

But Broadminded is not a perk. You do not get any kind of bonus for dealing with other races for having it.

Well, the book appears to specify that you find success at it -- hence why it should be a perk rather than a Quirk.

I don't care.

?????
You were just arguing that Broadminded is a trivial form of Xenophile, and then said its drawback is from the reactions of others. But Xenophilia does not mention such reactions, so your proposed drawback has no connection as a trivialization of Xenophilia.

That Broadminded people will behave like toned down Xenophiles is dangerous in itself.

Noting that the only mechanic specified for a failed self-control roll on Xenophilia is that the character will assume that a stranger will want to interact socially, I don't think it's correct to assume that there is inherent danger from that on a net basis (unless strangers really ARE dangerous in the setting for some reason).

I also note that the description of Broadminded contains no mechanic for toning this effect down and uses the word 'trivial' in that regard. (Were you one of those arguing earlier that a description with no mechanic should just be ignored?)

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

... Which is simply not true, any more than an early 20th century American character is addicted to tobacco by default.

You missed the part about baseline levels whatever they may be.

You only have the disadvantages that are actually on your character sheet, ...

And they are only disadvantages to the extent they differ from a norm.

Being 'better' than the social norm does not constitute an Advantage relative to the default state of a PC.

There is no default state of a PC.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

If it were zero, then your version of Broadminded's drawback (social oprobrium) could not apply.

Yes, if everyone is tolerant and friendly, aliens included, there is no place for Broadminded. However I have never seen such a setting outside of cartoons for very young children.

The description of Xenophile makes no reference whatsoever to this social implication you are proposing to impute into Broadminded.

And what's more the description of Xenophile at no point specifies any of the consequences of offering drinks to glaring soldiers, making passes at vampires, and shaking Hastur's tentacle. So given that no consequences are specified, can you think of any reason why Xenophile is a disadvantage instead of an advantage that protects you from fright checks? Don't you think just a _little_ reading between the lines is called for?

Well, the book appears to specify that you find success at it -- hence why it should be a perk rather than a Quirk.

No, if it _specified_ that, it would give the bonus you have to interaction with other races and weird life forms. All it does is imply that, at least some of the time, you'll get along well with persons of other races or species. Which you will because some people will respond to friendly overtures at least if they make a good reaction roll.

?????

You were just arguing that Broadminded is a trivial form of Xenophile, and then said its drawback is from the reactions of others. But Xenophilia does not mention such reactions, so your proposed drawback has no connection as a trivialization of Xenophilia.

Right, so you're firmly of the opinion that shaking Hastur's tentacle is a risk-free activity because it was never mentioned in the RAW that it was dangerous.

Noting that the only mechanic specified for a failed self-control roll on Xenophilia is that the character will assume that a stranger will want to interact socially, I don't think it's correct to assume that there is inherent danger from that on a net basis (unless strangers really ARE dangerous in the setting for some reason).

Which of course they are. Alien species and other races are dangerous in any setting outside of cartoons for very young children.

I also note that the description of Broadminded contains no mechanic for toning this effect down and uses the word 'trivial' in that regard.

The lack of a mechanic is the mechanic. Not including the Xenophilia mechanic (the self-control roll) automatically tones the effect down.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Noting that the only mechanic specified for a failed self-control roll on Xenophilia is that the character will assume that a stranger will want to interact socially, I don't think it's correct to assume that there is inherent danger from that on a net basis (unless strangers really ARE dangerous in the setting for some reason).

Strangers are dangerous, in general, for the fairly obvious reason that (a) some entities are dangerous and (b) you don't have a basis to know if this is one of them. This is substantially augmented by (c) Xenophilia seriously inhibits your ability to respond appropriately to obvious indications that this particular stranger is one of the dangerous ones.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

You missed the part about baseline levels whatever they may be.

...what might they be? What does 'baseline level' mean in your lexicon? I proposed an interpretation in the post you're quoting from, but this response makes me lean toward 'wildcard that can mean absolutely anything'.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

And they are only disadvantages to the extent they differ from a norm.

Ok, seriously, a norm for what? If you mean a norm for a PC, yes. If you mean a norm for people in the setting, not even remotely.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

There is no default state of a PC.

Well, you've brutally murdered 'norm' and 'baseline', so why not?

A PC is not defined relative to the people around them. They are defined relative to a...standard, shall we say? And this standard transcends settings.

If the world is populated exclusively by talking squirrels, the PC is still only small, furry, and tree-climbing if their character sheet says they are. If the world is populated only by blind people, the PC still has binocular color vision unless their character sheet says otherwise.

If the world is populated predominately by superstitious (Delusion), racist (Intolerance), Agoraphobic, Greedy whatevers, the PC is still free to stand on a mountain-top flinging money to the generally hated people while cursing at the gods. They don't need to buy the right.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Whereabouts?

B119. The big box on the very first page of the disadvantage section.

As I mentioned before, the problem with Broadminded as described is that it goes beyond this, specifying a state of the world and adding a minor beneficial immunity.

You seem completely stuck on this misinterpretation of how it works. It does not make people react better to you by default, unless they consider Broad-Minded itself to be a positive thing and react positively to seeing you exhibit it. You get along well with other people, but that doesn't mean they get along well with you. If you see some freaky alien monster mysteriously sitting at the bar, you're more likely to go up and try to start a conversation with it, while everyone else is running to get their guns. After all, it's just sitting there enjoying a drink, seems friendly enough, so what if it's got mandibles the size of your arms and a half-dozen barbed tentacles?

Now, if you had Xenophillia, you'd have to make a SC roll to avoid going over there and chatting it up, and even doing that too often is going to get you dinged for poor roleplaying. If you have Broad-Minded, you might go over and chat with it, or you might decide to be a little more cautious and just go on about your day. But if you didn't at least try to dissuade your friends from shooting the alien monstrosity (After all, it hasn't done anything to seem hostile, it's not right to assume it's bad just because it looks different than us!), then you're not playing your Broad-Minded properly, and you're going to get dinged for bad roleplaying. Especially since the missing bar tender might have just ran away before you got here...

Neither are going to directly affect its reactions to you. Of course, it might react positively just because you're speaking with it ("Thank goodness, someone friendly! That last guy that was here just started screaming and ran away. I was just asking for directions..."), but that would happen wether you have Xenophilia, Broad-Minded, or are just a normal non-quirked person who decided to try asking questions before shooting.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Oh, BTW, your justification for Broadmindedness being disadvantageous (the negative views of the non-Broadminded), is not alluded to at all in the Xenophilia description which you were pointing earlier.

While the major part of most disadvantages is not directly a reaction penalty, most will have some, in effect. The vast majority of disadvantages do not have a reaction penalty explicitly listed for them, but it's quite obvious that people will react poorly to it. Berserk, Combat Paralysis, Greed, Kleptomania, and several dozen others. Someone claiming that they shouldn't cause negative reactions because the rules don't explicitly state that they should would strike me as the worst kind of munchkiny rules-lawyering.

...Actually, that last sentance kinda goes for this entire topic.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Strangers are dangerous, in general, for the fairly obvious reason that (a) some entities are dangerous and (b) you don't have a basis to know if this is one of them.

Well, that doesn't make them dangerous, but we're getting off-topic here.

What does 'baseline level' mean in your lexicon?

Whatever the GM/game system implicitly or explicitly determines it to be. The description of Broadminded on B163 says "strange looks rarely bother you". The words "strange", "rarely" and "bother" all evoke the concept of divergence from some standard, norm, or equilibrium.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Ok, seriously, a norm for what? If you mean a norm for a PC, yes. If you mean a norm for people in the setting, not even remotely.

Norms are norms. I have no idea what you mean by a norm "for a PC". PCs can be normal or not normal for their settings.