Why is Broad-Minded a Quirk?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It absolutely can't be a perk, since perks by definition have beneficial mechanics.

That's news to me. Can you point me to that requirement?

It's impossible for a non-mechanical quirk to contain beneficial features.

??? I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around that idea. Do you mean to say that without specific mechanics the descriptions of traits are meaningless?

The so-called benefits of Broad-Minded are all things that a non-Broad-Minded character could do just as well, so there's no actual benefit.

So, by analogy then, I suppose you wouldn't object to Quirks such as:

"You are good with money and it tends to find its way to you. And you don't react emotionally to money issues."

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

-3 to notice stuff when working on any sort of long task? It really shouldn't take much of a killer GM to make that downright life-threatening.

Except the player has choice over when to incur the penalty and seek the benefit. Compare Single-Minded, it gives a +3 to tasks and incurs a -5 penalty. A minus 5 penalty surely wouldn't take any kind of killer GM to make life-threatening if a player were foolish enough to use this advantage in an enemy's lair, but Singleminded is considered Advantageous and Attentive is not. There's a screw up there, and it happened when they rolled out bad Quirks a few years ago.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It doesn't contain any beneficial features.

Yes it does.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

That's news to me. Can you point me to that requirement?

"A 'perk' is a very minor advantage"

No beneficial mechanics = not an advantage.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

??? I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around that idea. Do you mean to say that without specific mechanics the descriptions of traits are meaningless?

No, I wouldn't say that. Likes Kittens isn't meaningless, for instance. But there's no way it or any other non-mechanical quirk contains beneficial elements because what they do is apply soft constraints on your roleplay. Since you could play exactly the same way without having the quirk, it certainly isn't beneficial.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

So, by analogy then, I suppose you wouldn't object to Quirks such as:

"You are good with money and it tends to find its way to you. And you don't react emotionally to money issues."

Well, the first sentence doesn't make any sense without mechanics, and with them it would be an advantage. The second sentence could be a quirk.

EDIT: Though I wouldn't generally recommend the second sentence as a quirk. I could imagine it being played out well and interestingly, but a lot of the time it just wouldn't show, since it indicates a non-action rather than an action. RAW quirk-test wise it's open to the same criticism as Broad-Minded, I think.

[nick012000]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Yes it does.

No, it doesn't. It constrains your PCs options when you decide what actions he takes; when you're playing a Broad-Minded PC, you're always open minded and you don't freak out over strangers. With a non-Broad-Minded PC, you have the option of being close-minded and/or freaking out over strangers. That makes it a disadvantage, especially since those strangers you're being freindly with could be dangerous and/or deceptive.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

No beneficial mechanics = not an advantage.

Well, there's where we differ, I guess. To me the text needs to be given effect even if no specific mechanic is provided.

No, I wouldn't say that. Likes Kittens isn't meaningless, for instance. But there's no way it or any other non-mechanical quirk contains beneficial elements because what they do is apply soft constraints on your roleplay. Since you could play exactly the same way without having the quirk, it certainly isn't beneficial.

But Broadminded does more than just state neutral or slightly disadvantageous elements of roleplay. It goes beyond the player's controllable choices and specifies a state-of-the-world: the character gets along well with others. And then it adds a minor immunity to a particular kind of discomfort.

Well, the first sentence doesn't make any sense without mechanics, and with them it would be an advantage. The second sentence could be a quirk.

Your analysis is admirably consistent. I agree if I were going to publish Broadminded as a Perk, it would be vastly improved by having mechanics built for it. But the starting concept is based on a benefit, and so it does not belong as a Quirk.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by nick012000

... It constrains your PCs options when you decide what actions he takes; when you're playing a Broad-Minded PC, you're always open minded and you don't freak out over strangers.

But those aren't constraints in any meaningful way. There's no benefit from being close-minded or freaking out over strangers, so it's advantageous for a character to be free of that.

... those strangers you're being freindly with could be dangerous and/or deceptive.

As noted by others above, being Broadminded does not mean you have to be gullible.

Come to think of it, one could rebuild the notion as a proper Quirk by making it a flavour of Gullible -- you have -1 to resist Influence attempts by strangers and aliens.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

"A 'perk' is a very minor advantage"

No beneficial mechanics = not an advantage.

No, I wouldn't say that. Likes Kittens isn't meaningless, for instance. But there's no way it or any other non-mechanical quirk contains beneficial elements because what they do is apply soft constraints on your roleplay. Since you could play exactly the same way without having the quirk, it certainly isn't beneficial.

Some perks contain no mechanical benefit, but instead, provide a "soft constraint" on the GM. For example, alot of the schtick perks allow characters to have a "standard operating procedure." Off-screen Reload provides no real mechanical advantage, it just means the GM can't ambush you with "Did you remember to reload?" because you can always tap your perk and say "Yup." Or High-Heeled Heroine, or the one that lets you wear a cape without problems. These represent contracts with the GM that he won't be a jerk about some fashion choices. These aren't "mechanical" in the sense of a bonus, much like not all quirks are "mechanical" in the sense of a direct penalty.

Mind you, I'm not sure this means that Broad-Minded should be a perk. I can't think of what actual benefits it provides, "soft" or otherwise. People might react well to you being so open-minded, but they might just as easily react poorly to it, and it's something you must roleplay. It's certainly a positive, likeable trait, but so is a quirk level chivalry "Polite to the ladies," but it's still certainly a quirk.

[nick012000]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

But those aren't constraints in any meaningful way. There's no benefit from being close-minded or freaking out over strangers, so it's advantageous for a character to be free of that.

Yes, there is. If you invite a monster in for a beer to tell his story, and he's just trying to get close enough to rip your throat out, it's a disadvantage. If you're in Ravenloft, it's a disadvantage. Hell, it's a disadvantage generally; PCs have a reputation for being paranoid for a reason, you know. Anyone your PCs meet might be a threat, and Broad-minded prevents you from being properly paranoid about them.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

But Broadminded does more than just state neutral or slightly disadvantageous elements of roleplay. It goes beyond the player's controllable choices and specifies a state-of-the-world: the character gets along well with others. And then it adds a minor immunity to a particular kind of discomfort.

I think you're misunderstanding what the text of the quirk is supposed to mean. I suspected as much.

Of course, my reading may be influenced by seeking to interpret things in such a way that they aren't stupid. I can't be certain of the author's intent.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Some perks contain no mechanical benefit, but instead, provide a "soft constraint" on the GM. For example, alot of the schtick perks allow characters to have a "standard operating procedure." Off-screen Reload provides no real mechanical advantage, it just means the GM can't ambush you with "Did you remember to reload?" because you can always tap your perk and say "Yup." Or High-Heeled Heroine, or the one that lets you wear a cape without problems. These represent contracts with the GM that he won't be a jerk about some fashion choices. These aren't "mechanical" in the sense of a bonus, much like not all quirks are "mechanical" in the sense of a direct penalty.

Some of them are mechanical in the sense of a bonus, like High-Heeled Heroine which negates a specific penalty. All of them are mechanical in the sense that I use the term. Cloaked makes you immune to certain occurrences. That's as mechanical as immunity to poison. SOP doesn't change active play as such, but it imposes a hard constraint on what happens in the background.