[theories] Where does dissonance come from?

[Jason]

Yeah, I suppose that "it depends" and "it's up to the GM" probably represent the wise consensus. Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies.

It would be very neat and tidy if the answer were that dissonance for angels comes from breaking the rules of the Symphony, and dissonance for demons comes from breaking the rules of the self ... but as we see in the above examples, that doesn't make sense for Seraphim speaking (sincere) untruths or Malakim avoiding dissonance for letting evils to live that they don't know about. I think there are even ways of understanding the Cherubim condition as "internal" (e.g., they immediately know when an attuned target is destroyed, and this knowledge is what causes the dissonance, not the other way around).

I think I may cut Kyriotates without the Destiny attunement some slack along these lines, especially as I didn't allow any of my PCs to purchase servants at character creation. I can't imagine a situation in which blacking out for a while wouldn't leave an ignorant mundane in "worse condition" if for no other reason that they might now be worried that they need to see a doctor about it.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Jason

It would be very neat and tidy if the answer were that dissonance for angels comes from breaking the rules of the Symphony, and dissonance for demons comes from breaking the rules of the self ...

And actually, that is a pretty decent summation. It's just that for angels, "The rules of the Symphony" can mean different things from Choir to Choir. For some Choirs it means "Don't do that." For others, it means "Don't let that happen."

EDIT: And for demons, I find the dissonance usually comes when they let a shred of their proper angelic nature get exposed. For an Impudite, the restriction against killing is a small piece of the Mercurian that should be there. For a Balseraph, getting burned when caught in a lie is the universe reminding him that he's supposed to be a Seraph. And so on.

[Acolyte]

I agree with "it depends" but I lean much more stringently towards "external."

Seraph: A Seraph who says "This is my friend, an angel" when his friend is a particularly plucky Balseraph doesn't incur dissonance. The statement uttered isn't true, but the Seraph didn't lie. I think that to lie you have to actively deceive--we don't say students who put incorrect answers on tests are "lying", we say they are "wrong." However, Seraphim have to be very careful about what business proposals call forward-looking statements, because declaratives are known not to be true--"It will rain today" isn't an appropriate statement for a Seraph, but "Today, rain is likely" is.

Cherub: The rules make this very clear to be external in most cases. As for the betrayal, again I would rule that the Cherub has to knowingly betray someone to incur dissonance, since "betray"al requires knowledge of what you're doing. A Cherub revealing a safehouse's location to someone he believes to be another angel but is actually a demon of the Game isn't betraying the would-be Redemption candidate hiding there, though he will probably be overcome with remorse when he learns what happened. A Cherub trading the safehouse's location for the safety of an attuned human IS committing a betrayal, even under duress.

Ofanite: The failed-roll dissonance is clearly external, but the action/inaction dissonance requires that there was something the Ofanite could actually do at the time to trigger. If you tie an Ofanite down and make him watch you murder his friend, a Soldier, it isn't dissonant. If you capture and Ofanite and force him to choose between saving that Soldier or an innocent child (because apparently I think you are a depraved madman), he doesn't take dissonance for making a choice, since he did something. If the Ofanite acts and still fails to prevent something bad, there's again no dissonance unless there was an obvious (to the Ofanite) better course of action he didn't take for some reason.

etc, etc

[tHEhERETIC]

So let me make sure I understand: You tell an Ofanite "Stay put" and he does, he's risking dissonance. You tie him down and while he'll be annoyed he won't be getting dissonance.

Better invest in really good rope... ;)

[William]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

So let me make sure I understand: You tell an Ofanite "Stay put" and he does, he's risking dissonance. You tie him down and while he'll be annoyed he won't be getting dissonance.

As long as he keeps trying to escape. If he surrenders and stops working at the problem, he gets dissonant. Stopping physically moving to concentrate on thinking of a way out, or consciously acting as if they've given up and are now dissonant, are still doing things, but actually just sitting there would be dissonant.

[JCD]

How often dissonance?

Three examples

How often does the Ofanim have to attempt to escape?

If an Impudite sets a bomb that kills 3 people, is it one point or three?

A Seraph lies to one person. He lies to three people. He talks to three people on three seperate occasions but repeats the same lie they had already heard.

How much Dissonance in each case?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

How often dissonance?

Three examples

How often does the Ofanim have to attempt to escape?

If an Impudite sets a bomb that kills 3 people, is it one point or three?

A Seraph lies to one person. He lies to three people. He talks to three people on three seperate occasions but repeats the same lie they had already heard.

How much Dissonance in each case?

Based on my own reading:

1) Not sure.

2) Three. "Personally killing a human -- through action or inaction -- causes dissonance in Impudites."(In Nomine, p. 153). So one note for each death, even if it's a single act that causes multiple deaths.

3)The APG simply lists the Seraph's dissonance condition as "lying"; based on the context there and elsewhere, I believe each spoken lie is meant to be a separate dissonant act. So based on that, it would be:

3a) One note for the single lie to the single person
3b) One note for the single lie to the group of three people
3c) Three notes total for talking to three separate people on three separate occasions and lying once to each of them. It doesn't matter that they've heard the lie before. What matters is that it's still not true.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by JCD

How often does the Ofanim have to attempt to escape?

If an Impudite sets a bomb that kills 3 people, is it one point or three?

A Seraph lies to one person. He lies to three people. He talks to three people on three seperate occasions but repeats the same lie they had already heard.

How much Dissonance in each case?

1) I would rule that any action taken by the Ofanite that is not part of an escape attempt would create Dissonance, including inaction if it isn't part of a ruse or plan.

2&3) I'm with Rocket Man

[Archangel Beth]

I would probably allow an Ofanite to go flop, while mentally going, "Think, think, think, needaplanneedaplan!" On the other hand, it would probably be a pretty short flop -- I call my kid an "Impufanite," after all, because

1) She sucks energy from other people.
2) She is constantly moving unless she's out of energy.
3) Whereupon she tries to suck energy from me again.

For an Ofanite, trying to get loose isn't likely to be a *difficult* choice unless maybe it's getting electric shocks every time it twitches. If it's nearly impossible for one probably-human kid to hold still... How much more-so for an Ofanite?