Assumptions on High School and College Skill Levels

[Mgellis]

My feeling has always been that the education system in GURPS (200 hours = 25 days of work = 1 character point) is simply a useful and plausible abstraction that does not reflect the range of real world learning, which involves far too many variables to model in any playable way.

Besides, in character design, it doesn't matter if they learned the skill in a year or a week; it only matters that they have (or do not have) the skill when they enter the story.

So I just rely on skill levels and I don't worry exactly when or how the character learned them.

12- = competent professional; if this is a skill where you can make a living, you can keep a job with this level of skill.

So what does a college degree mean in GURPS? (This could be a two-year degree for some skills, by the way.) The average graduate will have one skill, possibly two, representing their major, at 12- or 11-. 12- means someone really knows their stuff, can hit the ground running or only needs minimal training, and can do the job pretty much from day one. 11- is for the guy who passed with a C+ average and knows his stuff well enough to get hired, but better learn the rest of what he needs on the job real fast or he is going to get fired eventually...or maybe arrested if he screws up badly enough. A few whiz kids, who are probably going to graduate school anyway, might have one or two skills at 13-. They will have a few other skills, representing important secondary areas of study or activity (this may include Carousing), at 11- or 10-. A typical B.A. or B.S. probably represents about 10-20 points of skills.

A high school student? Hmmm...with a few exceptions, I would assume high school students a) use most skills at default (IQ-5, etc.), b) have ONE point in a couple of skills (the subjects they are really into, hobbies or activities they spend a lot of time on), or the Dabbler perk, and c) might, if they are unusually strong in certain areas (for a high school student), have higher levels in one or two skills.

Dabbler is a great addition for low-powered games; it seems a good way to handle high school kids who are "whiz kids," local stars, perhaps, well above their peers (+2 or +3 over default in a couple of select skills), but not truly skilled in the way that GURPS means it.

Mark

[Dwarf99]

Well I read somewhere that a typical college semester would be like 1 point in a skill (some have even suggested that it should be Intensive and that it should suffer from Maintaining Skills) I'd put a high school year as a point in all the subjects studied but that you don't have to maintain. Some older folks might beg to differ... but I still got all my highschool education.

[MagiMaster]

Just to point out, but most universities won't let you get away with focusing solely on your major. Any college graduate will pick up a broad range of skills, although mostly at the Dabbler level. I know I don't have a full point in History, no matter how many courses I took (3 or 4 IIRC). Actually, I think a lot of people would argue that all the miscellaneous stuff you pick up in college is at least half the point.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Dwarf99

Well I read somewhere that a typical college semester would be like 1 point in a skill (some have even suggested that it should be Intensive and that it should suffer from Maintaining Skills)

Intensive Training is for Army Ranger School. not a semester at Chug-a-Brew U. Most people never picked up an actual Skill in a college course so there's nothing to maintain.

4 hours of lecture hall for 12 weeks (or whatever a semester is these days) would only come to 48 hours (if it counted fully as study with an instructor which I am dubious of). The remaining 150 hours would have to come from self-study at half speed for something like 20-25 hours per week per course you're taking.

1 cp per year in the major field only seems more likely to me.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by MagiMaster

Just to point out, but most universities won't let you get away with focusing solely on your major. Any college graduate will pick up a broad range of skills, although mostly at the Dabbler level. I know I don't have a full point in History, no matter how many courses I took (3 or 4 IIRC). Actually, I think a lot of people would argue that all the miscellaneous stuff you pick up in college is at least half the point.

Yes but that could justify a skill like Liberal Arts or College. Think of them as the accademic equivelant of the soldier skill.

[MagiMaster]

I'd buy that. Expert Skill (College Core Curriculum) or something similar sounds like a reasonable way to model that, and I'd most likely let my players take it if I was running a game. (As long as they didn't try to abuse it anyway.)

[Dwarf99]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Intensive Training is for Army Ranger School. not a semester at Chug-a-Brew U. Most people never picked up an actual Skill in a college course so there's nothing to maintain...

1 cp per year in the major field only seems more likely to me.

ok well I was using intensive training for those cram sessions where you ace the final after and then forget everything three weeks later (which I wouldn't even really call it that, but I know that some would). I think that saying most people don't pick up a skill would be more accurately said by "those that get drunk, party, and don't give a crap about school" because some places actually have less partiers and more actual students.

anyway it's 3 per class for 16 weeks (at UARK anyway). same number of hours of in class time. so, yeah sure you could say that the 300 or so hours required to get that point in addition to the 48 will only get you 1 point of a single subject but that 300 hours only amounts to about 3 hours per day (300/16/7... yes people study on weekends too if they know and appreciate where their money is going), and if you're only studying about 3 hours per day let's face it, you could always study a second subject and get two points :)

[Langy]

Even people who don't party likely don't earn actual skill points for a single semester of a single college class. The majority of teaching time in school, including college, people aren't actually learning anything, especially not anything new - a huge portion of the time, they're reviewing stuff you already know (or should), going over procedures, etc. The pacing of classroom instruction really isn't ideal for most people - you'll go over a lot of stuff that you've already got a really good handle on repeatedly, and might not get enough time to learn stuff that you have a hard time with, for example. One-on-one individual instruction's much better.

Also: I don't know anybody who studies for three hours per class every single day. I don't think anybody does - instead, they take multiple courses at once, usually four or five.

Anyways, Kromm's said the 200-hours-per-skillpoint bit's entirely unrealistic and shouldn't be used to determine actual education. It's a gameplay abstraction.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Dwarf99

anyway it's 3 per class for 16 weeks (at UARK anyway).

The cramming is more likely to represent some form of the Time Spent modifers on p.346. Even Tests (which after all are taken out of combat) probably count for the +4 for Routine difficulty (even for Default Rolls). You just don't get a Default to Calculus until you start studying it.

Ok, 48 hours of class time and that's being generously counted as time with an instructor. You need 304 hours more as self study is only half speed. On the Job Training at quarter speed might be a better representation.

Over 7 x 16 or 102 days that's 3 hours of diligent study per course _every_ day (if you're really diligent).

Are you assuming you only study for 1 course out of 3-4 per semester? Which course are you picking? Do you not study _at_all_ for the others? Then there's all the other time-eaters like eating, sleeping and travelling between classes. I don't know about you but I got in quite a bit of gaming time in college. :)

I'll stick with my 1 cp per year in the major area of study only.

[Dwarf99]

Originally Posted by Langy

Even people who don't party likely don't earn actual skill points for a single semester of a single college class.

Sorry I don't understand how since there's academic skills listed in the book, there aren't people capable of retainiing them over a semester. Also there's Research.

Originally Posted by Langy

The majority of teaching time in school, including college, people aren't actually learning anything, especially not anything new - a huge portion of the time, they're reviewing stuff you already know (or should),

Where is it you "should know" accounting or psychology or marketing or anything other than the dates of historical events (high school rarely teaches the impact through the ages)

Originally Posted by Langy

The pacing of classroom instruction really isn't ideal for most people

That I'll agree with

Originally Posted by Langy

you'll go over a lot of stuff that you've already got a really good handle on repeatedly, and might not get enough time to learn stuff that you have a hard time with, for example. One-on-one individual instruction's much better.

While yes, one on one courses are better, I'll have to disagree, I know that most every class will have some small measure of review for the things you learned in previous classes but the way they structure classes in schools that know what they are doing, more like 3/4 of the time is spent on <gasp> new material.

Originally Posted by Langy

Also: I don't know anybody who studies for three hours per class every single day. I don't think anybody does - instead, they take multiple courses at once, usually four or five.

Well about half of the responsible students I know usually study for 3 hours in two classes. The point is that each class in which you study that much (which is usually at least one or two of the classes) is worth in game mechanics 1 point.

Originally Posted by Langy

It's a gameplay abstraction.

incedentally I think that's what the OP asked about :D