Robot vs Space Marine

[Langy]

In an Ultra-Tech setting, if you insist on making a robot pay for its abilities via points you'll wind up with a robot that's vastly underpowered compared to a human of the same point total with equipment.

Unfortunately, for most robot designs it makes no sense to buy certain things - especially armor - as equipment, because most robot designs aren't human-shaped (or otherwise can fit into a suit of armor).

If you want equality of outcome, so that your 500 point robot will be just as good as your 500 point space marine, you need to figure out some way to make the robot able to take into account the fact that high-tech equipment is available and much, much, much, much cheaper than buying the same capabilities as innate advantages.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Langy

If you want equality of outcome, so that your 500 point robot will be just as good as your 500 point space marine, you need to figure out some way to make the robot able to take into account the fact that high-tech equipment is available and much, much, much, much cheaper than buying the same capabilities as innate advantages.

Yes, exactly. You understand why I've posed the question in the first place.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Langy

In an Ultra-Tech setting, if you insist on making a robot pay for its abilities via points you'll wind up with a robot that's vastly underpowered compared to a human of the same point total with equipment.

Unfortunately, for most robot designs it makes no sense to buy certain things - especially armor - as equipment, because most robot designs aren't human-shaped (or otherwise can fit into a suit of armor).

If you want equality of outcome, so that your 500 point robot will be just as good as your 500 point space marine, you need to figure out some way to make the robot able to take into account the fact that high-tech equipment is available and much, much, much, much cheaper than buying the same capabilities as innate advantages.

It depend of the setting, of course, but if robot are common, why assume armor come only in human shape ?

Still, any advantage that exist in both cp bought advantage and high-tech storebough equipment create the same problem.
And there is no easy solution.

The everything that can be bought is paid with cash is the more logical, but overvalue wealth. Especially once you get into cognitive cyberware and/or skillset...

The everything that could have a cp cost is paid as cp make no sense, but preserve some equilibre. Good luck explaining to a player he must pay point for his gun, or clothes, however.

Most setting walk a fine line betwen the 2, with edge case making no sense.

But in the specific case of the OP, i don't see why the robot cannot buy and wear armor and hold a rifle. See the Terminator for example. He does not even need weapon mount, unless you specify otherwise, he have 2 functional manipulator.

Celjabba

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The everything that could have a cp cost is paid as cp make no sense, but preserve some equilibre. Good luck explaining to a player he must pay point for his gun, or clothes, however.

Well, it works ok in Supers settings, where much of the world doesn't make much sense anyway. For example, the "assault rifle" power set of City of Heroes bears no relation to reality at all. Still, you get players pointing to a weapon in the book and asking "Uh, why can't I just go down to a store and pick up one of these?"

But in the specific case of the OP, i don't see why the robot cannot buy and wear armor and hold a rifle. See the Terminator for example. He does not even need weapon mount, unless you specify otherwise, he have 2 functional manipulator.

Well, I want the robot to feel like more than just a guy with a gun and armor, only made of metal rather than flesh, so there will be some differences, but the more I listen to various suggestions, this seems to be the ideal way to go. Robots might have access to different armor than humans (humans will wear, for example, bullet proof vests, while the robot "bolts on" a hardsuit), and their guns won't look the same as human guns ("It mounts directly here, via that socket point there").

Given that I can't find any innate attack powers in Ultra-Tech, this seems to be the core assumption of the book. Combat Androids, for example, can wear armor, while Warbots cannot.

[Celjabba]

Also, gurps core assuption on this matter seems to be that,
indeed, the filthy rich tl-10 space marine have 500 more point to spent than is robotic partner,
but when they end up naked in a prison cell or a stone-age planet, the robot still have his dr and innate attacks, while the marine don't.
Sadly, most prison owner will remember to disable a robot weapons***, and most space marines PC tend to sleep and shower in their battlearmor, just in case...

Celjabba

***: innate attack (and armor) not taken with gadget or power disadvantages should be immune to disabling. Except that if they are detected, most jailer won't hesitate to resort to bolt-cutter and plasma torch.

[SuedodeuS]

An alternative would be to build the PC as a program, rather than as a robot. Then, he uses his money to actually purchase the computer he'll be living in and the robot that computer is housed inside of. He'll spend more money than the marine, and might have to spend more cp, meaning he'll be less effective overall than the marine. He'll be bloody hard to kill, though - he can fight essentially as though he were Berserk, but without the drawbacks, as so long as his body functions he can keep going. And, if his body is destroyed, so long as the data on the computer isn't damaged he'll just need to get a new body.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

An alternative would be to build the PC as a program, rather than as a robot. Then, he uses his money to actually purchase the computer he'll be living in and the robot that computer is housed inside of. He'll spend more money than the marine, and might have to spend more cp, meaning he'll be less effective overall than the marine. He'll be bloody hard to kill, though - he can fight essentially as though he were Berserk, but without the drawbacks, as so long as his body functions he can keep going. And, if his body is destroyed, so long as the data on the computer isn't damaged he'll just need to get a new body.

I thought of that, but Digital Possession requires you to pay for your best body, if you spend most of your time in it.

Originally Posted by B76

If you occupy a host for a long
time, or hop between multiple bodies,
the GM is free to adjust your point
value to reflect the most expensive
body you regularly occupy.

I intend for these robots to be programs that normally occupy a cyberspace, but can upload into shells and hang out with the meat-characters, but you have to include their typical body into their point costs.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

An alternative would be to build the PC as a program, rather than as a robot. Then, he uses his money to actually purchase the computer he'll be living in and the robot that computer is housed inside of. He'll spend more money than the marine, and might have to spend more cp, meaning he'll be less effective overall than the marine. He'll be bloody hard to kill, though - he can fight essentially as though he were Berserk, but without the drawbacks, as so long as his body functions he can keep going. And, if his body is destroyed, so long as the data on the computer isn't damaged he'll just need to get a new body.

That effectively makes the robot a possession based character that doesn't pay CP for its (much more powerful) long-term bodies, which is likely to go off the rails from a point perspective.

On the other hand, to a degree the same goes for any vehicle-operating character...and you could make an organic race of, say, intelligent slugs that operate assault mechs through neural interfaces for much the same effect.

For extra huge point benefits, grab some compartmentalized mind (dead easy for software to justify). While driving a vehicle that you control through a mind-machine (or machine mind) interface, that gives about the same effect as ATR.

And while you may be quite crippled if your battle drone is taken out, if your character was built as the robot, you'd probably be 'dead'...

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I intend for these robots to be programs that normally occupy a cyberspace, but can upload into shells and hang out with the meat-characters, but you have to include their typical body into their point costs.

Yeah, the deluxe point crock is to make the 'body' a compact computer, which just happens to be wired into the 'operators position' of the robot (or is modular and can be plugged in).

[Shrale]

Hopefully I haven't misunderstood you and your post's concept...

Originally Posted by Mailanka

and their guns won't look the same as human guns ("It mounts directly here, via that socket point there").

Is that really important ? Aren't looks just for humans/sentients who care
about such things. The robot just wants something that works or that
they can employ. Come to think of it, so do humans.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Given that I can't find any innate attack powers in Ultra-Tech, this seems to be the core assumption of the book. Combat Androids, for example, can wear armor, while Warbots cannot.

???

But why couldn't a warbot be redesigned or retro-fitted ? Which is basically
what a human does when he gets new (and improved gear).

Why can't that warbot mount a Force Field after it's employer decides he
needs more protection ?

I was looking at the Zhodani Warbots (GURPS Traveller) and was putting
together a Tavrchedl Team (Military Thought Police) and thought a warbot
might be an excellent "extra man" for the team. I also noticed that the
Warbot has no "small weapon" just a fusion cannon (they can have smaller) nor does it
have a Datalink program. Personally, I think the Datalink program would be
more useful (as well as the ability to wound and not blow someone to pieces)
to the team when deployed as a scout or perimeter sentry.

Since I had planned on the Team Leader having an acquaintance/ally as an
engineer, later down the road the Lady Engineer might suggest an upgrade
to the warbot in a few areas.

From Characters 4e p61

Innate Attack 
Variable

You have a natural or built-in attack with which you can inflict physical
damage (for nondamaging attacks, see Affliction, p. 35, and Binding, p. 40).
Examples include a dragon’s fiery breath, a robot’s built-in blaster, and a
god’s ability to hurl lightning bolts.

So according to that passage, virtually any weapon or device that will
fit could be an Innate Attack; like psionic devices (Hypnagogic Wiper,
Ghost Ripper); how about a Dream Net Induction field on it's hand ?
(by touch, it paralyzes them and sends their mind into a VR Scenario).

Or am i missing your point ?

>

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Shrale

Is that really important ? Aren't looks just for humans/sentients who care
about such things. The robot just wants something that works or that
they can employ. Come to think of it, so do humans.

In this setting, yes. In principle, no.

But why couldn't a warbot be redesigned or retro-fitted ? Which is basically
what a human does when he gets new (and improved gear).

Why can't that warbot mount a Force Field after it's employer decides he
needs more protection ?

I was referring to the Warbot template in the UT book, which has "Cannot wear armor" in its template. You could certainly redesign it, if one wished to.