Robot vs Space Marine

[Mailanka]

So, I'm tossing together a space opera setting in my spare time, a baroque and over-the-top gothic setting filled with epic action heroes, and something slowly dawns on me. I need some help with this:

In one corner, you have a space marine. He's awesome, let's say, 500 points of pure, distilled, military win. He's also got power armor (worth 100 DR) and an awesome gun (15d pi+). In the other corner, you've got a robot, also made of 500 points of win. However, assume his DR and weapon are innate. 100 points of DR is 500 points, right there, and 15d pi+ damage is 90 points, so even before he's purchased any skills, any stats, he's already 90 in debt.

Now, I observe that most robots don't come with weaponry. Instead, they have weapon mounts. I imagine I could just buy a gun for him and socket it on. Can I do the same for armor? How about a radio? Why would you play a robot worth several thousand points when you could play a much cheaper robot who sits in a tank and drives it around?

I imagine this same problem faces most cyborgs, genetically engineered assassins, super-heroes and heroes with magical powers in a setting filled with magical enchantments, so I'm sure several of you have come across this and dealt with it before. My instincts say: Gear is stuff you buy with money, inherent advantages are stuff you buy with points. But the line between "gear" and "inherent advantage" blurs when you're playing a robot.

How can you integrate Ultra-Tech into a game with "powered" characters without making the powered characters chumps? And lets avoid answering "By making the non-powered guys pay for his gear as gadgets," not because it's a bad answer, but it's one I'm already aware of. I'm looking for other ideas.

Thoughts?

[Langy]

I believe I mentioned something like this in another thread, but let's see if I can remember how it worked. Seemed to make a lot of sense at the time, anyways.

Basically, add a +100% enhancement to Signature Gear to make it an innate part of your character. Want night vision, but don't want to pay 10 points for it when someone who bought it could have paid a single point for it through Signature Gear? Pay 2 points and you get night vision eyes. Bam.

Personally, I'd couple that with a modification of how Signature Gear works so that buying stuff as Sig Gear isn't more point-efficient than trading points for cash. Signature Gear should probably wind up being about half as efficient as points-for-cash, in my opinion, but both points-for-cash and sig gear costs should scale with Wealth level.

EDIT: +100% might be a little low - I'd consider up to a full +300 or +400% enhancement satisfactory, especially if an innate piece of equipment didn't still have battery, maintenance, or other considerations.

[nick012000]

Originally Posted by Langy

I believe I mentioned something like this in another thread, but let's see if I can remember how it worked. Seemed to make a lot of sense at the time, anyways.

Basically, add a +100% enhancement to Signature Gear to make it an innate part of your character. Want night vision, but don't want to pay 10 points for it when someone who bought it could have paid a single point for it through Signature Gear? Pay 2 points and you get night vision eyes. Bam.

Personally, I'd couple that with a modification of how Signature Gear works so that buying stuff as Sig Gear isn't more point-efficient than trading points for cash. Signature Gear should probably wind up being about half as efficient as points-for-cash, in my opinion, but both points-for-cash and sig gear costs should scale with Wealth level.

EDIT: +100% might be a little low - I'd consider up to a full +300 or +400% enhancement satisfactory, especially if an innate piece of equipment didn't still have battery, maintenance, or other considerations.

Personally, I'd make it an Accessory Perk on top of the Sig Gear's normal cost.

[Mailanka]

So nobody else has thoughts on this? There's nothing in the RAW that I'm not aware of that might help?

[Victor Maxus]

Under GURPS rules, 500 point robot and 500 point human are the same thing, unless you place specific limitations and advantages on it. For example, you may spend tons of points on getting the 100 DR for the robot, putting far behind in skill points than the marine. But if you do not take the CAN NOT WEAR ARMOR limitation, then the robot can slap on the same DR 100 armor suit and have a total of 200 DR. That would be a huge bonus in combat. Otherwise, you can assume the character is a light weight robot design with no DR (its outsides are made of a very light and flexable material or something like that) and it can use those points for skills and stuff, and still slap on the armor like the space marine.

Basically, 500 point robot is identical to 500 point human. You make both the same way and just say "Oh, mine is a robot who acts, feels and thinks just like a human." It is essentially a 0 point special effect sort of thing. This is the standard assumption of GURPS. It is the whole Generic aspect of it.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Victor Maxus

Basically, 500 point robot is identical to 500 point human.

Except where you choose to define them differently, for example by offering one innate abilities where the other chooses equipment. Thus, the main thrust of my question focuses on balancing innate powers (DR and Innate Attack are just examples) vs equipment, especially in an Ultra Tech setting

But your point about "Cannot Wear Armor" is a valid one. I can't believe I had forgotten it. Of course a robot can wear armor or wield a gun unless I make it so he can't, in which case, he gets points back.

[Xplo]

In theory, one of the nice things about innate abilities is that they can't be taken from you. Of course, this rarely works out so well in practice - people who can't be rendered harmless tend to get drugged or killed instead - and is completely irrelevant in an "arena" setting, unless Space Marine wants to disarm the robot (which he presumably can't do, unless he's wearing a suit that augments his strength considerably).

The point about "can't wear armor" is probably a better one, all things considered. Robots with guns attached to them should probably take Extra Attack, as well (and won't need Multistrike) although I wonder whether it wouldn't be more cost efficient simply to take extra arms that could hold more guns...

[Victor Maxus]

Ah, I see where you are coming from now, and the answer to that one is... it is hard to say. I have been playing GURPS for 20 years now, and even way back when, the balance between the two is hard to do. I guess the only answers is what I have said already. While the robot has the innate abilities, but then is reduced in skill and attributes, it can still use the equipment that the human can use, unless you build in limitations as a disadvantage. So, while a 4D innate attack may not be as powerful as a 7D attack from a high tech gun, the fact is the robot can still use the high tech tech, and have his innate attack as a back up. That is nice, but the price is a less skill than the marine who has no innate attack, but poured more points into his skills. HOWEVER, she he lose his rifle, his higher skill becomes useless compared to the robot and his back up weapon.

I don't know if that makes it any more clear, but it is something to consider for the situation.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Xplo

although I wonder whether it wouldn't be more cost efficient simply to take extra arms that could hold more guns...

That's what the Weapon Mount advantage effectively is: Extra-Arm 1 (Weapon-Mount -80%) [2]. It's explicitly listed as an option for robots on page UT167.

I wasn't sure if you should pay dollars or points for that weapon, though. I suppose you pay dollars and assume that an opponent can "disarm" you with some effort. Seems kinda cheap, but I suppose the alternative is far too expensive.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Victor Maxus

and have his innate attack as a back up.

I plan on building templates for these various characters, and so how the game works will shape my design. I'd just ditch it all and go with Gadgets if UT wasn't so darn handy and generically useful. No reason to re-invent the wheel, right?

But your point here is solid. It'll have to shape my design philosophy: the robot will rely on tech where possible, and use his innate abilities to augment them. For example, building a robot with a durable frame and weapon sockets, which allow additional armor and weaponry to be mounted (paid for with dollars), gives him innate powers (DR, weapon mounts) that still work well with tech. He'll have fewer "skill" points than the Marine, which I'm fine with, but not so few that he's effectively useless.