Where did Skill 12 = professional come from?

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by azmendozafamily

Actually the rules do say that.

From 4e B293 under Learning on the job. "If you have a job, time spent on the job counts as the 'study' of skills used on the job. ...every four hours onthe job count as one hour hour of learning."

I take that as learning new ways of doing something. be it a new way to close a sale, solder a joint, deal with an unruly patron at the bar, whatrever. Even if its just becoming faster/ more efficient at your skill. Practice makes perfect.
pm

Time spent on the job doesn't specify what you're doing. You could be doing anything work related. Taking a break, waiting for someone else to show up or finish what they're doing, drive from one work site to another. Whatever it is that you do on an average work day. The rules doesn't specify that it is 25% of the time you use your skill, but 25% of the time you're at work. Being on the job doesn't mean that you're working all the time.

But in the end, the GM interprets this rule as he wants to.

[nik1979]

Trying to get back on topic:
Any ideas when skill 12-15 is applicable for professional levels?

Reading B221 Soldier skill it seems the second paragraph already describes the soldier job roll, so wouldn't soldier be expected at 15 or 12?

Originally Posted by Soldier B221

The GM may require a Soldier roll whenever circumstances would test your battlefield discipline (knowing when to shoot, use concealment, take cover, etc.) or skill at practical field survival (e.g., keeping your feet dry and eating when you get the chance). Roll daily during prolonged military action. Failure means an inconvenience - perhaps a minor piece of equipment fails. Critical failure indicates a disaster: "friendly fire" incident, trench foot, etc.

I'm using soldier since the soldier profession seems to be the most default basis for the adventuring professional (ex. Strength, weapon proficiency, etc.).

[Ragitsu]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Trying to get back on topic:
Any ideas when skill 12-15 is applicable for professional levels?

For what it's worth, the PCs in my game must have Soldier 12+ as one of the prerequisites to qualify as "combat ready".

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

For what it's worth, the PCs in my game must have Soldier 12+ as one of the prerequisites to qualify as "combat ready".

This is because in your game the characters are military, right? Soldier is by no means necessary for an adventurer and primarily not related to combat...

[Ragitsu]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

This is because in your game the characters are military, right? Soldier is by no means necessary for an adventurer and primarily not related to combat...

Yes. They're not "adventurers" in an occupation sense, but resistance/soldiers (The Soldier skill covers a lot of little stuff that I don't care to keep track of, but still requires a degree of overall proficiency). That doesn't mean they won't experience actual adventure, though :- }.

What'd you guys think of Soldier being able to handle cleaning up/concealing a campsite upon departure?

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

This is because in your game the characters are military, right? Soldier is by no means necessary for an adventurer and primarily not related to combat...

not neccessary but certainly useful. read the description of soldier- from personal, equipment, precautionary measures, basic emergency situational skills, discipline etc.

the soldiers job is to put one's in harms way. The training for a soldier fundamentally is to best prepare him/her for physical, situational, and enemy dangers.

He is armed with SOPs on how to approach a potentially dangerous situation, taught basic regulations and rules of war, educated to weigh the risk of a situation not only for themselves but for the individuals they are responsible for and to work as a team.... all pretty usefull as an adventurer.

Imagine an adventurer who doesn't have soldier skill:
- long operations in hazardous environments will be a problem
- basic preparedness in equipment, logistics and psychological conditioning meant to undure such extremes (as well as live with it).
- discipline

Imagine an wilderness adventure with someone who has no soldier or soldier-like skill.
- You'd have to watch over them, instead of dedicating all perception resources on the environs.
- You'll have to prep their packs and their equipment for them. Check their boots, their LBE, their weapons etc..
- Camp and Operational Discipline: "Shushing" them when they don't know better, giving them a long list of dos and donts...(basically treating them like children)
- Knowing how to operate as a team with a defined leader, responsibilities and boundaries instead of a committee.
- worrying about the unpredictable factors that will trigger their natural civilian responses in extreme situations.
... of course this can be ignored depending on game style and have seen that happen often enough to understand it may complicate the game for some people.

[Icelander]

In a game where people without military training routinely know how to travel with heavy kit without giving up tactical awareness, make camp in a place that maximises concealement and provides a good observation post for sentries, maintain vital equipment without having the skills to make it, etc.; I'd give those people Professional Skill (Adveturer) of something to represent this knowledge.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In a game where people without military training routinely know how to travel with heavy kit without giving up tactical awareness, make camp in a place that maximises concealement and provides a good observation post for sentries, maintain vital equipment without having the skills to make it, etc.; I'd give those people Professional Skill (Adveturer) of something to represent this knowledge.

I'd give those people Hiking (there's no rule I can find about encumberance ever impeding awareness), Tactics, and either low levels of full fledged maintenance skills or extra-generous defaults off use skills to maintain gear intended for easy upkeep (firearms are maintained with IQ-based weapon skill according to HT80).

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Trying to get back on topic:
Any ideas when skill 12-15 is applicable for professional levels?

Reading B221 Soldier skill it seems the second paragraph already describes the soldier job roll, so wouldn't soldier be expected at 15 or 12?



I'm using soldier since the soldier profession seems to be the most default basis for the adventuring professional (ex. Strength, weapon proficiency, etc.).

It really depends on the sort of soldier you're talking about. I'd give militia most skills 10, professionals and militia with lengthy combat experience most skills 12, and veteran professionals most skills 14. Yes, this means that soldiers will often make mistakes and die in adventuring situations, and that only a tiny fraction of bullets or arrows will hit in combat, but that's realistic. Also, many adventurers don't have the luxury of training to high skill levels in all the skills they might find useful.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Trying to get back on topic:
Any ideas when skill 12-15 is applicable for professional levels?

In 3e mass combat, skill 10 or lower is raw levies, skill 11 is green troops, skill 12 is regular troops, skill 13 is experienced troops, skill 14 is veteran troops, skill 15+ is elite troops.