[MA] Best dirty-fighting style for a callous weakling?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron

In a realistic-themed world things like Intimidation and a common Phobia of harm will matter, which allows small weaklings to do well if they're vicious.

However, in a realistic-themed world, those small weaklings that actually manage to be successful won't be the ones that are dumb enough to play to their opponent's strength by being unarmed.

It's much harder to disable a person with one or two secret moves in reality than it is in fiction. Hence, most vicious people use weapons if they are forced to violence.

Sure, the average person might be frightened off by the threat of violence, even if there is nothing backing it up. But the problem here is that if someone relies on that threat for his living (or adventuring career), eventually someone will turn out to be just as fond of violence and considerably bigger.

Out of all the drug enforcers that I've met, only one was below average height and that guy was still hugely muscular and probably weighted at least 180 lbs. The scariest one of them stands about 6'6" and weights between 250-300 lbs., depending on what weight class he was aiming for in his last powerlifting competition.

And not a single one of them made a point of fighting unarmed if he could get away with using a weapon of some sort.

Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron

Ever see Joe Pesci in Goodfellahs? I can't quote him here because of his extraordinary amount of profanity, but in essence he's a little guy who does well simply by being nastier and more determined than everyone else.

Go over the movie in your head.

How often does Pesci fight someone one on one, without using a weapon of any kind?

He inflicts his violence by guns, knives, clubs and improvised weapons. Because he is smaller, he knows he needs the extra edge. That's realistic.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Anthony

While most games choose to ignore this, as it's not really a cinematic trope, the concept of the weak-but-fast or weak-but-agile character is mostly mythical -- being fast and agile requires high strength relative to your size, and someone who is noticeably above average in speed and agility, unless tiny, is probably stronger than the average adult. It's possible to be strong and slow, but not the reverse.

In GURPS terms, it would probably be realistic to limit DX with a wide variety of activities (for a start, acrobatics and all melee combat skills) to (10 * Striking ST/HP), where HP is assumed be calculated strictly from mass, and limit basic speed to half that value. This might require recosting some abilities to be balanced, or assigning an actual point value to mass.

GULLIVER suggests that high ST-to-weight ratios should make it possible to purchase "negative encumbrance," which boosts Move, Dodge, and certain skills like Climbing and Swimming. http://www.gamesdiner.com/gurps/GULLIVER/B2mobility.htm

I've never used the negative encumbrance rules but I'd probably cost them slightly cheaper than Tbone does because the bonus is so easy to lose (just a few pounds of weight and suddenly you're back almost to regular encumbrance levels). I love the thought of necromantic ninja-like skeletons with regular human strength but only 10 pounds of weight, hopping around like jumping beans. Unless they're wearing armor, of course.

-Max

-Max

[chris1982]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

If nothing else, I think the career of Royce Gracie is one demonstration of that.

How much Judo skill does he have? 18? 20? He definitely should be able to get this arm lock going... :-)

[giganerds]

Originally Posted by chris1982

How much Judo skill does he have? 18? 20? He definitely should be able to get this arm lock going... :-)

IMHO...

I could guess 16-18, with ground fighting (Judo AND wrestling) at maximum, arm lock at maximum (20-22) plus power grappling and ground guard perks. While a very good champion, his main technique is send the oponnent to the ground and work there.

About his ST, it's above average (11-12?) but bellow the others MMA fighters (13-14?).

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

How often does Pesci fight someone one on one, without using a weapon of any kind?

He inflicts his violence by guns, knives, clubs and improvised weapons. Because he is smaller, he knows he needs the extra edge. That's realistic.

Exactly. Despite how some may read my earlier comments, I have no problem with a warrior who has spent less on ST than his rival prevailing through equalizers. I just dislike seeing equalizers like weapons and sucker punches overlooked. Whenever I see two supposedly "skilled" fighters going at it unarmed and head to head, I expect the stronger one to win. Seeing the weaker one win "because he has 'tude" or "because she's a ninja" sets off my b.s. detector. Seeing the weaker one win by bringing a gun to a fistfight, booting the stronger one in the nads before the fight starts, or simply stabbing someone in the back with a knife isn't a problem for me at all.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Exactly. Despite how some may read my earlier comments, I have no problem with a warrior who has spent less on ST than his rival prevailing through equalizers. I just dislike seeing equalizers like weapons and sucker punches overlooked. Whenever I see two supposedly "skilled" fighters going at it unarmed and head to head, I expect the stronger one to win. Seeing the weaker one win "because he has 'tude" or "because she's a ninja" sets off my b.s. detector. Seeing the weaker one win by bringing a gun to a fistfight, booting the stronger one in the nads before the fight starts, or simply stabbing someone in the back with a knife isn't a problem for me at all.

Indeed, 'equalizers' is what I was asking. Weapons are an obvious one, though originally I assumed a mostly high-CR and/or no-low-LC kind of combat, preferably nonlethal (but possibly with crippling). Improvised weapons - which are especially appropriate for the environment found in the movie - was an equalizer that I somehow overlooked. Now, sucker punches are what I'm most interested in, which is why I mentioned the Nutcracker Technique and dirty fighting in general. But I have a hard time coming up with versatile, numerous dirty tricks. I assume there's somebody more knowledgeable than me on the issue. :)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Improvised weapons - which are especially appropriate for the environment found in the movie - was an equalizer that I somehow overlooked.

In our last Traveller game, one character had Armoury(shiv), though that's probably something that can be generalized into Armour(improvised) or something. It proved quite useful.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Now, sucker punches are what I'm most interested in, which is why I mentioned the Nutcracker Technique and dirty fighting in general. But I have a hard time coming up with versatile, numerous dirty tricks. I assume there's somebody more knowledgeable than me on the issue. :)

Who's the GM? Would s/he be amenable to adjucating effects not explicitly found in the rulebooks?

Many hits that end fights in the real world do not do anywhere near crippling damage in GURPS terms. The thing that ends the fight is pain, suprise, fear or momentary stunning.

In GURPS terms, this would be handled by Fright Checks and/or the GM adjucating (possibly by means of Will checks) that someone isn't prepared to fight on after taking one hard hit.

For example, a hard punch in the stomach might not do any HP damage in GURPS terms (there's no lasting harm and in a few minutes, the person is fine), but it might cause someone to be incapacitated for a few seconds due to pain and loss of breath. In my games, I'd call for a Will check (with modifiers for the Shock penalty of the hit, High/Low Pain Threshold and a variety of other Adventages or Disadvantages that might be applicable) and a failure might cause Mental Stun.

Allowing for mental incapacitation removes the unrealistic effect of all fistfights ending with someone severely injured (that's not to say it's not always possible, just that it doesn't happen every single time).

Regardless of whether your GM would be willing to consider such rules, the major thing to keep in mind is striking before the other person knows there is combat going on.

A couple of examples:

While you're still talking to someone you think you need to harm, tell the GM that your character will use Acting to move into position to attack while Evaluating. Then, before combat time starts, do an All-Out Attack (Double) to grapple and knee strike to the groin. The grapple is at Skill+0 and the Knee Strike, since you've grappled him from the front, is at no penalty as well. Add to that the -2 penalty to defend for him for the Knee Strike (as well as the -4 penalty for surprise) and the +2 damage bonus you get for having grappled him in the same turn, and you're looking at a pretty sweet bonus. Even a ST 8 weakling gets 1d damage from a blow like this, as long as you've got Brawling at DX+2. And even if he doesn't keel over right away, you've still got him grappled and he's probably still mentally stunned. Repeat as necessary.

Remember the pen and pencil. They're improvised Knives and with a single Perk, anything vaguely stabby that you pick up can be used as a Knife at no skill penalty. In general, improvised knives don't parry well, so don't be afraid to use Reverse Grip for that vital +1 damage. And if you can, grab your opponent before you stab him, since that gives a +2 damage. There's a reason for why you're taught to grab the sentry before driving your knife home into his throat, it's because it allows you to thrust deeper and with more control.

Arm Lock is ST-independent. Never forget that. It's going to be your best method of crippling a foe. And while it looks tempting to raise Judo and go on the defensive, consider instead that you can perform Arm Lock with any weapon, such as an improvised Knife or Shortsword. Or a dedicated weapon version of such. Yep, that's right, that retractable ASP you keep in your pocket can be used to bust joints as well as heads.

Stealth. Evaluate. Telegraphic All-Out Attack from his rear when he hasn't spotted you. Use something heavy and unbalanced, such as a 9 lbs. fire extinguisher (Two-Handed Axe/Mace, probably around sw+3, or 1d+1 for you) and aim for his Skull. Sure, you'll be at a -2 to skill for the MinST and -5 for Skull from behind, but the +4 for Telegraphic will go some way toward fixing that and if you need, you can AoA (Determined). If you think you can hit without it, AoA (Double) allows you to really brain him good.

The Intimidate skill is a good investment. Sure, you'll look like a fool when trying it before a fight, but that's not what you'll use it for. What you'll do is buy the Flourish (Brawling) Perk and Intimidate the living daylights out of people after you've brutally kneed their friends in the gonads. Be sure of describing what it is you do. I suggest a vigorous pelvic thrust and perhaps a threat of same-sex sexual violence towards them, but what do I know?

The Holdout skill is your friend. Remember, after you palm the roll of quarters or slip that screwdriver into your sleeve, you need some way to hide it before you introduce it to the body of your foolish enemies (and coincidentally introduce them to a world of hurt). You might want to couple it with Scrounging and Filching, for maximum palming effect.

And finally, always remember that the best time to hit an enemy is when he's down. That's why god, Kromm and Martial Arts gave us the Stamp Kick. Learn it. Master it. Use it with All-Out Attack (Strong) if there's no other enemy within reach. Good targets are the joints of his legs (so he won't stand up again), the joints of his arms or his hand (so he won't be able to hurt you if he does get up again) or his neck, head or skull (so he'll never get up again).

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Icelander

... While you're still talking to someone you think you need to harm, tell the GM that your character will use Acting to move into position to attack while Evaluating. ...

That's a great one. I used a similar ploy with the spider-chick I mentioned upthread. She was being held in a room under guard. To overpower the guard, she feigned having a sharp pain in her mandibles and asked the guard to look to see if he could see anything. So while Red Shirt was staring into her mouth, she was building up Evaluates for a vicious bite-his-face-off attack.

LOL -- good times.

[Lord Carnifex]

To add to Icelanders good suggestions, there's one that I've ingrained after years of bar security

If A and his friend C are in even a moderately crowded situation, and B becomes confrontational with A, the proper place for C to be is standing directly behind B. IME, if there's even a moderate number of people moving around, B will concentrate on A enough (arguing, building up Evaluates against A, making Will rolls to initiate hostilities, using Body Language to try and read A) that B must roll a decent Perception roll to even notice that C is there. Meanwhile, C Evaluates B, and Waits for B to act (can one Evaluate while Waiting? I'm sure the question has been asked before - I'll have to look it up.)

Backing up your friends is well and good, but the best place to back up your friends is behind your enemies.