Dungeon Fantasy: Good or Bad for GURPS?

[D10]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Generally I think, the DF-line is really good for GURPS!

Though one thing is really missing in my opinion:
A DF-supplement with typical and some innovative dungeon-creatures / monsters!!

Ideally it should include some hints how powerful the included monsters are in a combat against groups with the default 250cp-templates from DF (as a kind of "challenge-rating").

I don't know if this is already planned but I'm very sure that almost every new player is looking for such a reference and IMO it would be also really nice for the experienced players (I'd buy it :p).

Yea I definetely would want to see something like that, very much necessary

[Captain-Captain]

Combat effectiveness can be looked at using the attacks and defenses YOU think would work best in general. Basic chance of rolling a successful hit, the chance the defense a PC has working. The amount of damage the attack gets past DR (after modifiers).

Example; Monster: Attack skill 14-. damage 1d+2 cutting

PC: Defense Roll 10- DR 2.

Attack 90.7%. Defense 50%. 40.7% chance of hitting successfully*.

Average damage is 5.5 reduced by DR to 3.5 which adjusts by 50% to 5.25 (5) damage per hit.

if any rolls aren't exactly average, you get different results, but this gives you and idea how long it will take that foe to down the PC.

Not perfect but reasonable.

*If it turns out to be 45.35% because a 50% success of negation means cut the damn chance in half, I will say in my defense that IT'S TWO FIFTY FOUR in the damn morning here as I type this!!!

[Gudiomen]

Personally, I think DF was great, I never actually ran a dungeon crawl, we keep talking about it, but never do. I'm not a fan of the style, it blows my suspension of disbelief to smithereens, and the point start budget (250cp) is a bit daunting for us, we're used to more traditional 100-150cp.
But I buy the books anyway, DF 1 gear rules and the CF approach are gold! And so are many other things. Simplified racial templates, streamlined rules for getting cash out of your skills, rules for tomes, and so on...

I don't see how the series subtracts in anything from GURPS. If people are playing it, it's because they want to and it sells. Not because they are being mind-controlled by some hypothetical mind-control laser.

The question almost sounds like "is it good that people can play what they like instead of being forced to play 'better' flavours of GURPS because of the lack of option?"

I don't think we're in danger of "being overrun by the masses of dungeon crawlers". In heart, we are the dungeon crawlers. The idea that GURPS is an elite system, that we should keep out the "riff-raff" is both a comercial suicide and the reason why it's so hard to find a group outside of the english-speaking countries.

We'll only become that other system, if we start doing JUST DF... it seems clear that we're not in danger of that, it would be comercial suicide too considering GURPS average audience that would be alienated and left wanting.

P.S.: besides, I feel that the problem with D&D was never genre, but "clutter". Too many rules, prestige classes, monsters that clearly inhabit the falling part of the creativity curve, ever more absurd levels of power, unbelievable world, etc... DF is the opposite, it reduces standard rules instead of adding more crunch. It makes playing DF easy and care-free, which from what I hear from the D&D has ceased to be for them.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

That's kind of you to say so. It is not beyond the realm of possibility; I ran a dungeon-based GURPS campaign for several years under the 3e rules.

Cool! I feel the best dungeon adventures have strong elements of science fiction.

[Nymdok]

DF Is good for GURPS, but not yet good enough.

How good it is may not be entirely obvious just yet as there is still at least one larg component of DF that we are waiting for.

Although not a DF book, Low tech has a lot to offer the genre and will bring it full circle. It will expand and broaden worlds of that tech level (TL3 give or take) so that DF has less of a 4 color feel to and more of a Depth and texture. It will allow DF to come up from the ground and stand on its own right as there will be a world and time for it to exist in as opposed to just some 10'x10' hall ways.

The small components, modules, are writable NOW, as long as the GM strictly enforces templates. We could do always do with more of those as the gamers we get from other systems may not be as interested in the front end overhead of building your stuff up from the dust.

That being said, a planet would be a great start. The only requirements that I would put on it is that it be earth like, and By that I mean a 350-400 day year, 1g gravity and a slight tilt on the axis. If we had an entire planet to agree on, we could begin to flesh it out with adventures.

Take that planet, throw in 20 major cities with vague hand wavings of cultural ideas, leave the Towns and villages to be added on a 'as-needed by the adventure basis' and next thing you know, there is a common 'greyhawk-like' expierience that we can all share.

As a matter of fact DF:6 YOU ARE HERE sounds like a good enough starting title to me :) Spend the day with Fractal Terrains (or a similar tool) and birth a planet. Dont obsess with flora and fauna specifically, climate/terrain will do well enough to get started.

We know the mechanics
We know the Races.
We Know the Templates
We will soon know the tech in much better detail.

Even more simplified....

We have people who have the skills and tools to do stuff. The biggest things needed right now are a place for them to do stuff(world) and stuff for them to do (Adventures).


Nymdok

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Generally I think, the DF-line is really good for GURPS!

Though one thing is really missing in my opinion:
A DF-supplement with typical and some innovative dungeon-creatures / monsters!!

Don't the 5 volumes of Creatures of the Night do anything for you?

[LynGrey]

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

I got into gaming because of D&D like almost - what, 90% of us? Dungeon-crawls are the "gateway drug" to lure youngsters in. They play their WoW and Diablo, maybe some D&D, then a trenchcoated figure comes up and says "Psst! Kid! Since you like that, howsabout a bit of Dungeon Fantasy?" A bit of a nibble, and from the simplified DF rules they're gradually introduced to the whole range of what GURPS has to offer. By the time they hit college, they're total GURPS-heads.

Besides which, DF is fun in and of itself. Don't want to go into deep detail this session? Just drag out your old Keep on the Borderlands module and improv a pleasantly nostalgic game with new flavors and options for a light gaming session.

Summary: Definitely "good".

Hey me and my friends have played the most popular systems, DnD/D20, Shadowrun (old and new), White Wolf (shudder), and Gurps... and we have an analogy with that kind of like yours...

DnD is like the erector set you get as a kid, then Shadowrun is like that first tool box you get as a teen.. you know just a hammer, screwdriver, socket wrench... Gurps is like the the Mechanhics tool box in the shop.. you got eveything you could possible need or don't need.. and WhiteWolf.. well you got a ball of yarn, go have fun.

Or the theme of drugs.. DnD is Weed, Shadowrun is acid, Gurps is Heroine, and Whitewolf is some out of date basil leaves.


But keepin in the theme of the topic.. DF did what Martial Arts did for me... Put our houserules in print :-)

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Generally I think, the DF-line is really good for GURPS!

Though one thing is really missing in my opinion:
A DF-supplement with typical and some innovative dungeon-creatures / monsters!!

Like Dungeon Fantasy 2?

Originally Posted by OldSam

Ideally it should include some hints how powerful the included monsters are in a combat against groups with the default 250cp-templates from DF (as a kind of "challenge-rating").

That is so dang hard you have no idea. It makes a huge difference if the party is "A scout, a druid, and a barbarian" vs "A knight, a swashbuckler, and a holy warrior" vs "A thief, a scout, and an illusionist wizard".

Assuming that the party is always composed of "A fireball wizard, A Knight, A Cleric, and A Thief" like D&D generally did, is a bad bad plan. It basically forces all groups to be organized like that, or it forces the GM to throw out the challenge rating system entirely and all that effort was wasted. Or it forces the GM to come up with a bunch of templates that are basically just a blend of the "Sacred Four" and end up being good at nothing, or end up trampling all over the Sacred Four niches, meaning if you have the "sword mage" in the party, other players won't take Wizard or Knight and you've got template restriction again.

It's especially pointless (pun not intended) because players aren't required to stay on template - it's recommended, but I suspect about half the GMs out there ignore the recommendation because their players want to play with some of the GURPS flexibility.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Assuming that the party is always composed of "A fireball wizard, A Knight, A Cleric, and A Thief" like D&D generally did, is a bad bad plan. It basically forces all groups to be organized like that, or it forces the GM to throw out the challenge rating system entirely and all that effort was wasted. Or it forces the GM to come up with a bunch of templates that are basically just a blend of the "Sacred Four" and end up being good at nothing, or end up trampling all over the Sacred Four niches, meaning if you have the "sword mage" in the party, other players won't take Wizard or Knight and you've got template restriction again.

I generally agree that trying to come up with a PC-centric "Challenge Rating" metric is futile. On the other hand, in terms of monster rep and nastiness, I wouldn't mind monster ratings along the lines of "how many 100-point armsmen could this beastie take out with high probability?" There's a difference between a dragon and a bulette, y'know, and DF is all about quantifying things with simplistic metrics. It feels good to know that your four buddies just took out a 1000-armsman dragon leading a 800-armsman horde of fire-breathing zombies.

-Max

Edit: yes, I know, it would still be futile in some cases. A DR 20 beastie which regenerates and has a fiery aura and Unkillable 2 can kill unlimited numbers of armsmen. Just call such creatures "legendary" and leave it at that.

[AmesJainchill]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

What I'm trying to do is create something which is a middle ground between that and what I guess would be considered a somewhat realistic Low-Tech Fantasy game. I like pretty much everything you described about DF, but I also want the world to have some internal consistancy and make sense. R. Howard's style with some of Tolkien's world building and a little bit of real world historical combat mixed in.

Same for me!
All the bottom-line stuff in DF is cool (I'd never run Spaceships with delta-v dependent drives, get an approximation and get to the action!), but I like internal consistency.
That's what I'm hoping my GURPS Al-Qadim sword-and-sorcery game.

And, I have to say, DF is good for GURPS!