[Psionic Powers] Quick Question: Increased Range (LOS) and "range"

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

If you went by straight distance, it'd actually be 10,000 yards, not 2,000. The simplest "ground up build" of Increased Range (LOS) would be Increased Range (10,000 yards), +60% or +90%; Vision-Based, Reversed, -20%.

It's not quite as simple as that combination, however. It's very much intended to be its own unique level of Increased Range.

Does a LoS-ranged ability stop working past 10k yards if you can still see the target?

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Does a LoS-ranged ability stop working past 10k yards if you can still see the target?

Of course not. Is there something in the text of the enhancement or anything I posted that implies otherwise? The text should be pretty straightforward -- if you can see the subject, using your normal vision (aided by lenses at the most), you can affect it.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Of course not. Is there something in the text of the enhancement or anything I posted that implies otherwise? The text should be pretty straightforward -- if you can see the subject, using your normal vision (aided by lenses at the most), you can affect it.

Well, I asked because you mentioned 10k, and I got wondering if it's a hidden limit you didn't think would be exceeded.

Also, regarding lenses: I suppose your playtest went through a big discussion, so, what is the exact definition of vision-based in terms of using stuff to help see better/further/behind corners? Where is the line after which it is considered that too 'indirect' vision is used?

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Also, regarding lenses: I suppose your playtest went through a big discussion, so, what is the exact definition of vision-based in terms of using stuff to help see better/further/behind corners? Where is the line after which it is considered that too 'indirect' vision is used?

Lenses and mirrors -- i.e., optics -- are okay. Nothing else. That seemed to be a pretty straightforward guiding star.

[munin]

The reason I had been thinking about that was trying to extend it to an area effect. If 10,000 yards is "equivalent" to line-of-sight, then it would take about 14 levels of Area Effect for a "anyone who sees you regardless of distance" or "everyone you can see regardless of distance" aura or emanation. I can't think of any stories that mention spotting a medusa from over five miles away, but it seemed like something to consider. Some abilities might let you resist by failing a Perception roll...

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

The simplest "ground up build" of Increased Range (LOS) would be Increased Range (10,000 yards), +60% or +90%; Vision-Based, Reversed, -20%.

But the Line-of-Sight enhancement doesn't affect 1/2D, right? At least, that's how it reads to me.

Psionic Powers only uses LOS on non-attack abilities, where increasing range normally is +10% per level. But if you applied LOS to an attack (with or without a 1/2D, like Binding), increasing Max would only be +5% per level, so LOS would be "equivalent" to 10,000,000 yards for a "Max 10" attack or 1,000,000 yards for a "Max 100" attack.

[PK]

Originally Posted by munin

The reason I had been thinking about that was trying to extend it to an area effect. If 10,000 yards is "equivalent" to line-of-sight, then it would take about 14 levels of Area Effect for a "anyone who sees you regardless of distance" or "everyone you can see regardless of distance" aura or emanation. I can't think of any stories that mention spotting a medusa from over five miles away, but it seemed like something to consider. Some abilities might let you resist by failing a Perception roll...

An interesting approach. That would make "Area Effect, LOS" somewhere between a +600% to +700% enhancement . . . that seems about right, at first glance, but I'd recommend some hefty playtesting to be sure.

But the Line-of-Sight enhancement doesn't affect 1/2D, right? At least, that's how it reads to me.

It change the range on any ability to LOS or, if it matters, LOS/LOS. So yes, that affects 1/2D if used on Innate Attack.

Psionic Powers only uses LOS on non-attack abilities, where increasing range normally is +10% per level. But if you applied LOS to an attack (with or without a 1/2D, like Binding), increasing Max would only be +5% per level, so LOS would be "equivalent" to 10,000,000 yards for a "Max 10" attack or 1,000,000 yards for a "Max 100" attack.

Dude, you are so overthinking this. Increased Range, LOS changes your range to LOS. No more, no less. Yes, I used "five or six miles" as a rough equivalent to help determine an appropriate cost, since that's a generous horizon for most places on Earth, but that's a behind-the-scenes thing. As written, Increased Range, LOS, has absolutely no ties to any specific, measured range. That's the whole point. If it was tied to a range, you'd just use a normal level of Increased Range.

[munin]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

...It change the range on any ability to LOS or, if it matters, LOS/LOS. So yes, that affects 1/2D if used on Innate Attack.

Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by munin

The reason I had been thinking about that was trying to extend it to an area effect. If 10,000 yards is "equivalent" to line-of-sight, then it would take about 14 levels of Area Effect for a "anyone who sees you regardless of distance" or "everyone you can see regardless of distance" aura or emanation. I can't think of any stories that mention spotting a medusa from over five miles away, but it seemed like something to consider. Some abilities might let you resist by failing a Perception roll...

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

An interesting approach. That would make "Area Effect, LOS" somewhere between a +600% to +700% enhancement . . . that seems about right, at first glance, but I'd recommend some hefty playtesting to be sure.

I'd do "Everyone I can see" with Cone rather than AE - and Cone with the new ER:LOS enhancement would automatically get that LOS range, with the end width being where the expense comes in. Barring 360 Degree Vision, of course.

"Anyone who sees me" AE LOS... hmm. Tempting to try to reverse engineer Terror from Terror (Active), but I doubt many would accept +0% to turn a one-subject Malediction-equivalent into an Everyone-Who-Sees-Me AE Emanation (Edit: Oops, Aura). I keep wanting to include the SM of the character (or body part, or whatever hurled focus becomes the center) that someone must be able to see, and PER rolls if it's not in plain sight - dragons can be seen much farther than, say, a gorgon's face - but Terror would have the same effect, and doesn't adjust cost for that. I guess just massive AE plus Vision-Based, with Kromm's officially okayed use of Aura on Area Effects (if you don't need an attack maneuver to zap people looking at you) is the way to go.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

"Anyone who sees me" AE LOS... hmm. ... I guess just massive AE plus Vision-Based, with Kromm's officially okayed use of Aura on Area Effects (if you don't need an attack maneuver to zap people looking at you) is the way to go.

I find the idea of making Line of Sight into an area effect something like a very ripe limburger :/ ;) ... Vision-Based should be the way to go here.