Psionics 4th ed Questions

[PK]

Originally Posted by rcarter

Thank you very much for your response. You are my new favorite person in the world for the week.

Google "ShorDurPerSav". It's a very useful word for situations just like this. :)

Well looking over the book and analyzing power cost and structures some things came to mind. 1stly it clarified some things in the characters book wherein it is said that psionics frequently required skill rolls and that the power talents effected skill rolls but very few advantages required skill rolls.

True. Now, note that both the Basic Set and GURPS Powers don't require skills for each ability. However, GURPS Powers introduced that as an option, which seemed perfect for psi. So GURPS Psionic Powers takes the approach that part of being a psi ability is needing a skill, even though the psi in the Basic Set is all about attribute rolls (instead of skill rolls). Think of the GPP psi as a more detailed version of the Basic Set psi, for games which focus on psi more heavily.

But my question refers to the actual CP of the system's modifiers. For example i can understand psi-power 'X' - requires att/skill roll, but what about psi-power 'x' -requires att/skill roll -4? Like the techniques or the effect that psi abilities take a penalty during subsequent uses on the same target or after a failure. Is this just unpointed crunch that falls under the psi modifier or are their exact CP cost rulings somewhere that i am missing?

This is several different issues, actually. I'll address them separately.

Psi Techniques: See the box Under the Hood: Psi Techniques (p. 9) for details. The rules there are adapted from the rules for adding Temporary Enhancements in GURPS Powers (p. 172). Every +10% in enhancements being added is -1 to skill, and that's how I got the penalties for the psi techniques. For example, look at Telesend (p. 60). The Broadcast psi technique just adds the temporary enhancements Broadcast (+50%) and Selective Area (+20%). The total is +70%, so that's -7 to skill. Similarly, Full Communion just adds the new Full Communion enhancement (p. 17); that's a +20% enhancement, so that's -2 to skill, and so on.

Now, a few psi techniques are actually more complicated than that (and a few of those are a lot more complicated!), but the rules above cover 95% of them.

Penalties to skill for regular use: This just comes straight from the advantage rules. For example, look at Autoteleport (p. 68). It says that repeated attempts are at an extra -5 penalty. Where did I get that from? From the Warp advantage itself (p. B97), which says that on a failure, you're at -5 to try again right away. I didn't come up with any of these special penalties -- they're just straight out of the rules for each advantage or modifier.

Love it, Using it. Didn't even know that you could used Melee, str based to replicate a weapon attack...

I forgot one line. It should also say: "This sword is gauzy and difficult to see; those nearby must make a Per+2 roll, minus range penalties, to notice the weapon in your hand."

Why Per+2? Because a normal vision roll to see something in the open is Per+10. The SM of a sword is -4 (so, Per+6), and then GURPS Powers introduces the guidelines that Low Signature translates (more or less) into a -4 penalty to detect something, so Per+2.

So i've been reading the book in more detail and i have to say i absolutely love the perks, they are very cool and very detailed minor abilities that i probably never would have thought of.

Psionic perks are one of my favorite things about the book, too. I'm glad you like 'em. Over half came straight out of the playtest, so let me shout out some mad props to my playtestin' homies.

What about using psychokinesis to effect guns/bows - bullet flight paths, ricochet shots, adding extra oomhp to a projectile, reloading a weapon using tk grab etc? Any thoughts?

Unfortunately, this is one thing that the standard GURPS rules simply break at. It's easy (trivial, really) to stat up a power that applies an effect to one particular weapon. However, it is literally impossible to create a standard power that can apply that effect to any weapon imaginable, because the ability building rules require you to know how much range, damage, etc., the weapon can already do -- and once you've built it, what if someone comes along with a more powerful weapon?

That's why GURPS Power-Ups 1: Imbuements exists. It has new traits which let you apply effects like you want to any weapon of a given type. If you want this, I'd strongly recommend picking up that book, then you can make the Imbue advantage a psychokinetic one -- and instead of having one psionic skill, it can have whatever Imbuement skills are necessary to create the effect you want.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Actually, not quite so. Skills are actually harder to improve [4/level] until you get an ability worth 80+ points (when Reliable starts costing too like skills or even more).

However, you can also improve a skill freely (where not every campaign allows adding enhancements to your advantages freely) and you can improve the skill far past Attribute+10 if you wish, exceeding the bounds of what Reliable can do.

Anyway, in my mind, requiring a skill is a negative thing. It's one of the "bad things" about psi. However, the "good things" more than balance it out. You can't just look at the skill requirement in a vacuum -- it is one facet of How Psi Works.

The only reason I see to wanting skills is the access to Power Techniques. (While not explicitly stated anywhere, I suspect Power Techniques are not meant to be used with attributes, even though there are mundane technique precedents such as the ST-based Neck Snap.)

Absolutely true. Psi Techniques only work with Psionic Skills. If someone wants to port the concept over to another power, they need to keep those attached -- they were conceived of together and intended to stay together.

[vicky_molokh]

The problem with considering skills a Drawback - or whatever is the Powers name for it - is that, IIRC, it isn't listed as one.
Another thing to wonder about is that Reliable works as Talent for one ability, and Talent adds to Skill. I'm not sure, but even recall it being written rather explicitly.
Sure, GPP outright says not to use the two together, but that is a GPP-specific case.

. . . All of which boils it down to GM's decision.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

The problem with considering skills a Drawback - or whatever is the Powers name for it - is that, IIRC, it isn't listed as one.

Sure it is. See Source-Specific Rules (GURPS Powers, p. 174) -- it is considered one of the Limiting (i.e., "bad") Options.

. . . All of which boils it down to GM's decision.

Since the same can be said for (quite literally) 100% of the RAW, I'm more than willing to agree with your tautology. In other news, water is wet and the sky is high. :)

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Sure it is. See Source-Specific Rules (GURPS Powers, p. 174) -- it is considered one of the Limiting (i.e., "bad") Options.

Well... he did say "IIRC" </helpful>

In other news, water is wet and the sky is high.

More, as this story develops!

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Sure it is. See Source-Specific Rules (GURPS Powers, p. 174) -- it is considered one of the Limiting (i.e., "bad") Options.

Weird, as the original box (P162) states that the drawbacks and benefits balance out . . . despite the fact that this is only true for abilities of more than 80 points.

. . . Hmmm, it also states that Power Techniques in general default to attributes. Which indeed once again makes Power Skills a drawback. I wonder what's wrong with the P162 box that it mis-explained skills.

[rcarter]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Google "ShorDurPerSav". It's a very useful word for situations just like this. :)

I can't believe that you sent me on wild goose chase on the internet to find my home with the all powerful bob.

Unfortunately, this is one thing that the standard GURPS rules simply break at. It's easy (trivial, really) to stat up a power that applies an effect to one particular weapon. However, it is literally impossible to create a standard power that can apply that effect to any weapon imaginable, because the ability building rules require you to know how much range, damage, etc., the weapon can already do -- and once you've built it, what if someone comes along with a more powerful weapon?

That's why GURPS Power-Ups 1: Imbuements exists. It has new traits which let you apply effects like you want to any weapon of a given type. If you want this, I'd strongly recommend picking up that book, then you can make the Imbue advantage a psychokinetic one -- and instead of having one psionic skill, it can have whatever Imbuement skills are necessary to create the effect you want.

hmm, Imbuements are prohibitively expensive, though. I came up with a few ideas.

Innate attack similar to PK Bullet with the modifier requires a focus/delivery object. like breakable and can be stolen but not a unique item just one item class - arrow, bullet, gun. (This would be creating psi-bullets/arrows and using a gun/bow as a delivery object to channel/deliver the psi-energy and removing the damage of the original object all together)

Maybe a power structure more like your sword with incremental partial dice but instead of an innate attack it is a 'charge' attack that is temporarily passed onto an object - bullet, arrow and then delivered by the object when it hits it's target. (This would be using the original object, bullet/arrow damage and tacking on a limited 1pt/level damage modifier. Regardless of whether or not the rules cover it 1pt/level isn't going to break anyone's hearts.)

so that would cover the basic damage portion and then enhancements like guided, homing, would be techniques that could be applied to either delivery method?

I want to keep things a streamlined.

EDIT: I am determined to create a NPC Psychokinetic gunslinger

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

I wonder what's wrong with the P162 box that it mis-explained skills.

Probably a lack of self-esteem, which manifests as a need to impress anyone it sees as a mother figure.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Probably a lack of self-esteem, which manifests as a need to impress anyone it sees as a mother figure.

+1 CP to you.

[PK]

Originally Posted by rcarter

Imbuements are prohibitively expensive, though.

Not really. They're just IQ/VH skills instead of IQ/H. (As written, they're DX skills, but the rules support moving 'em to IQ for psis, mages, etc.) So that's just -1 to skill for the same price. That leaves the Imbue advantage, which is comparatively priced to most psi abilities -- Imbue 2 (PK, -10%) is the same price as a few levels of TK Grab, and cheaper than Pyrokinesis 2.

Also, it seems like all of the skills that could simulate "psychokinetic control over the bullet" are part of Imbue 2, with the sole exception of Homing Weapon. Still, Guided Weapon is almost as good, and it fits psis better -- it makes sense that you'd have to concentrate to guide the bullet to its target. So I'd just include the Arching Shot, Bank Shot, Far Shot, and Guided Weapon skills, which keeps the price down even more.

If you want to compensate for having to buy a bunch of skills, just bundle extra Imbuement Talent into the ability. If it only affects the Imbuement skills (no advantages), it's 5/level, and if you treat it as a special case and let it stack with PK Talent, you can achieve some large bonuses. (You could do the same by allowing lots of extra PK Talent, of course, but that opens the door for all psi -- bundling in Imbuement Talent lets you make it more of a "hidden exception" for Imbuement skills.) Like:

Psychic Gunslinging (12/17/22/27/32 points for levels 1-5)

Skill: Special (see description).

You can learn certain Imbuement Skills (see GURPS Power-Ups 1: Imbuements for rules and details) that let you do impossible things with bullets. You may only learn the Arching Shot, Bank Shot, Far Shot, and Guided Weapon skills, and only for specialties of the Guns skill. For example, you could learn Bank Shot (Pistol) and Far Shot (Rifle), but not Scattershot (Pistol) or Bank Shot (Bow). This ability is thus unique in that, theoretically, it could have up to 36 associated skills instead of just one. In practice, since all Guns skills (and thus all Guns Imbuement Skills) default to each other, it generally makes sense to buy skills for one specialty and default the others.

All such skills are IQ/VH (not IQ/H, like most psionic skills, or DX/H, like non-psionic Imbuement Skills). If you have Psychic Gunslinging at level 2+, add your (level-1) to all skills, cumulative with Psychokinesis Talent. For example, if you have Psychokinesis Talent 3 and Psychic Gunslinging 5, you'd add +7 to all Psychic Gunslinging skills.

In some campaigns, Gunslinger (p. B58) may be a prerequisite for this ability; ask your GM.

Statistics: Imbue 2 (Accessibility, Gun specialties only, -10%; Limited Skill Access, Four Skills, -20%; Psychokinesis, -10%) [12]. Further levels add Imbuement Talent, one level at a time [+5/level].

Innate attack similar to PK Bullet with the modifier requires a focus/delivery object. like breakable and can be stolen but not a unique item just one item class - arrow, bullet, gun. (This would be creating psi-bullets/arrows and using a gun/bow as a delivery object to channel/deliver the psi-energy and removing the damage of the original object all together)

Maybe a power structure more like your sword with incremental partial dice but instead of an innate attack it is a 'charge' attack that is temporarily passed onto an object - bullet, arrow and then delivered by the object when it hits it's target. (This would be using the original object, bullet/arrow damage and tacking on a limited 1pt/level damage modifier. Regardless of whether or not the rules cover it 1pt/level isn't going to break anyone's hearts.)

That would cover adding extra damage to the attacks, sure. You'd use Followup, Any Attack (+50%, from PU2).

so that would cover the basic damage portion and then enhancements like guided, homing, would be techniques that could be applied to either delivery method?

Not really. The techniques would only apply to the extra damage that you're adding, not to the basic damage. That's the whole problem -- GURPS breaks on this without Imbuements.