Converting D&D to GURPS: Combat Comparison

[Kromm]

I'd go with 50 points + 50 points/level, so that level 7 is 400, level 8 is 450, and level 30 is 1,550. GURPS assumes a basic level of human capability (50 points is a competent non-adventuring Joe) that's considerably higher than what D&D assumes, whence the offset. Some folks prefer 25 points/level, but I don't think that adequately reflects details like 10th-level PCs being literally 10 times harder to kill than 1st-level ones, even when tied to a rock naked and without magical powers.

[abates17]

I appreciate your taking the time to respond. Honestly, you could have just said, “Stop trying to make GURPS into D&D!”, but you didn’t, and I respect you for that. In trying to shoehorn D&D modules into the GURPS ruleset, I understand that some things don’t fit easily or well. But the alternative is going with the D&D ruleset, and I just can’t see going back to such an abstracted combat system, or a constrained set of class abilities with little variety.

I will keep you posted on my efforts to adapt modules for GURPS play! Thanks again!

[weby]

I have used 25 points/level for enemy types when converting some D20 starwars material to Gurps for my starwards campaign. But that is basically when making "combat only" enemy characteters with few noncombat skills and that scaling has worked well.

I started the PCs at 125 points and they seemed to be about equal to level 2-3 enemies and they are now at about 165 points and seem to be equal to level 3-4, So the PCs need maybe 40-50 points to reach the same. (As they have points in wider variety of skills and advantages)

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Gollum

The problem with D&D hit points, no matter the edition, is that they don't only mean ability to take injuries. They also mean skill and luck or destiny.

Indeed, a warrior who reaches the level 20 is not far much bigger and stronger than when he was at level 1. He remains an ordinary man, who can be killed by one good axe blow (decapitation). But, during combat, he will loose his hit points much more slowly, which just means that he is harder to kill: he is able to avoid or reduce the effect of much more blows. A blow that was dangerous for him (a sword blow for instance) becomes a mere scratch...

I'm so glad to read this summary, it was so dead on - That realization was what caused my initial moving away from the AD&D base rules system - I started using alternate hit points from Arduin Grimoire, because of the fact that you simply couldn't have low-level players adventure with high levels, due to the fact that they would almost inevitably die in the first fight.

For the OP, I thought your skeleton was pretty decent. The trick to my mind is: What is the flavour of the creature you are trying to build? After that, it's just a matter of how it works for you and your players.

Are you looking for the scuttling, quick skeletons from "Jason and the Argonauts" or an Unstoppable Undead Juggernaut version of "The Terminator"? Are they smart? Are they cannon fodder? Somewhere in between?

As others have pointed out, you're really not going to get easy formulaic translation of the existing Monster Manual creatures. If you could, other would have done it (and some folks have done some of the creatures out there, if you dig around).

On The Other Hand, it frees you to try new, interesting things. In fact, that "Terminator" skeleton sounds VERY interesting, now that I've said it. :)

Edit: Oh, and in case the OP didn't read Gavynn's Post. Really. Go read it. Excellent!

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Kromm

If nothing else, I'd say that a level 30 dragon would be something akin to a 1,500- to 1,600-point monster in GURPS.

I went ahead and tried tallying up the bulk of the points of the Very Old Red Dragon in the 3.5e Monster Manual. Before bothering with spells (probably another 30 points) or mental disadvantages (probably negating the points in spells, and a little bit more), I came up with over 1,100 points for it. Much of it was in the 14d Burning Attack with the 20 yard wide Cone enhancement, which might be a tad much, but even a lower-damage attack will leave the dragon at 1,000 or so points.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by abates17

“Stop trying to make GURPS into D&D!”

But take a look at GURPS Dungeon Fantasy to see Dungeon Fantasy as Kromm would see it working in the GURPS system.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by chris1982

3) You neglect bonus damage from ST. Every D&D fighter type has at least +2, so he attacks at 1d3+2 or with the sword at 1d8+2... With a Greatsword this is 2d6+3, nearly a guaranteed 1 hit kill...

Not exactly. Skeletons have DR 5/bludgeoning, so average damage for a greatsword is 5 points.

Edit: re Dragon - the Monstrous Western Dragon from Dragons has 460 points, which represents a 3 000 lb. dragon.

[pawsplay]

Some rough notes

CHARACTERS

3e to GURPS Conversion

This is a guide to converting old 3e and 3.5 characters to GURPS. This guide is holistic, in that the intent is more important than a precise number or effect. It is accurate, in that it strives to make sure each character retains the same essential capabilities. And it is rough, in that the final results may require some tweaking.

Sometimes, a calculation will call for a rating. Include all the usual ability modifiers, feats, and so forth, but not equipment or other things not inherent to the character or that are situational.

Generating Basic Attributes and Secondary Characteristics

ST: ST is easy, because in both GURPS and 3e, 10 is average and 20 represents 4x the lifting capacity. So ST = Str. However, subtract 2 if the character is Small and add 5 if the character is Large.

DX: DX = 10 + Dex modifier. Alternatively, use 10 + (Reflexes/2), but if this produces a DX of 11+ and you originally had a Dex penalty, add Ham-Fisted [-5].

IQ: IQ = 10 + Int modifier.

HT: HT = 10 + Con modifier. Alternatively, use 10 + (Fortitude/2) if that produces a higher number.

Hit points: Use ST, as usual. For characters 2nd level or higher, however, use 10 + (original hit points/10) if that produces a higher number.

Will: Use the higher of IQ or 10 + (Will/2).

Perception: Use IQ. Alternatively, use 10 + (Listen + Spot + Search)/6, if that produces a higher number. However, if the character is untrained in Listen, Spot, and Search, and does not have a feat that improves any of those checks, use 10 + Wis modifier if that is lower than IQ.

Fatigue Points: Use HT, as usual.

Basic Speed: Use the normal calculation. However, add 0.25 if you have Improved Initiative.

Basic Move: As calculated. Subtract 2 yards [-10] for a dwarf, halfling, or other character with a base move of 20’.

Other Traits

If you have a Cha bonus of +1 or more, select one or more of Attractive, Charisma, Fashion Sense, Social Chameleon, or Voice. If you have a Cha of -1, take one or more of Unattractive, Stuttering, Shy, Loner, Chummy, Clueless, Callous, Bad Temper, or Jealousy.

Converting Feats

Most skill feats that give a bonus to skills, such as Alertness, should just be figured into your final rating. In some cases, they may be better represented by a specific Advantage, instead. Some feats say they “add to” specific skills or bonuses; add +1 to the effective rating. For instance, Weapon Focus adds to a weapon skill, so add +1 to your effective bonus to hit before calculating your weapon skill.

Feat
Animal Affinity: Animal Friend 1
Blind-Fight: Either Blind-fighting (IQ-1) [4] or Acute Hearing 2 [4]
Brew Potion: Adds to Alchemy, or Alchemy (IQ-1) [4]
Cleave:
Combat Casting: Add to Concentration
Combat Expertise: Enhanced Parry [10]
Combat Reflexes: Combat Reflexes [15]
Deflect Arrows: Parry Missile Weapons skill at 10 + (Reflexes/2)
Diehard: High Pain Threshold [10], plus enough Hard to Kill to bring you up to a 16 or less
Dodge: Enhanced Dodge [15]
Endurance: Fit [5] plus Perk (Sleep in armor) [1]
Far Shot: Add to primary ranged weapon skills
Great Cleave: add to primary weapon skills
Great Fortitude: Resistant (Metabolic Hazards, +3) [10]
Greater Two Weapon Fighting: Dual Strike +4 [5] with favorite weapon
Greater Weapon Specialization: Add to weapon skill
Improved Bull Rush: Sumo Wrestling is a primary skill
Improved Critical: One Targeted Attack technique of choice to maximum for that skill
Improved Disarm: Disarming technique +4 [5] for favorite melee weapon
Improved Feint: Feint technique +4 [5] for favorite melee weapon
Improved Grapple: Either Wrestling becomes a primary skill, or adds to Sumo Wrestling and Judo. Take Perk (Power Grappling) [1] if your ST exceeds your DX and you know Wrestling or Sumo Wrestling, or Armor Familiarity (Judo).
Improved Overrun: Sumo Wrestling becomes a primary skill, or adds to Sumo Wrestling
Improved Precise Shot: Adds to primary ranged weapon skills
Improved Shield Bash: Adds to shield or buckler skill
Improved Sunder: Targeted Attack to weapon +2 [3] with favorite melee weapon skill
Improved Trip: Sweep with favorite skill at +3 [4]
Improved Turning: Add a +10% enhancement to True Faith, “Will check at -1”
Improved Unarmed Strike: Karate is a primary skill. Add DR 2 (Partial, hands, -40%; Tough Skin, -40%) [1].
Leadership: Allies
Magical Aptitude: Grants Magery [5] in addition to skill increase.
Manyshot: See Rapid Shot
Mobility: Acrobatics at 10 + (Reflexes/2) or adds to Acrobatics
Mounted Archery: Horse Archery default+4 [5]
Mounted Combat: adds to Ride
Point Blank Shot: adds to primary ranged skills
Power Attack: Striking ST +1 [5]
Precise Shot: adds to primary ranged skills
Quick Draw: grants Fast-Draw with favorite weapon DX+2 [4]
Rapid Reload: Perk (Rapid Reload), +5 ST for reloading ?
Rapid Shot: Heroic Archer [20]
Ride-by Attack: Cavalary training default +3 [4] with favorite weapon
Run: Running skill HT +0 [4]
Shield Proficiency: Shield or buckler skill 10 + (BAB+Dex modifier)/2
Shot on the Run:
Skill Focus: Skill Focus (Balance) is Perfect Balance [15]. Skill Focus (Spot) is Acute Vision 5 [10] and Skill Focus Listen is Acute Hearing 5 [10].
Snatch Arrows: adds
Spirited Charge: add to Ride and Lance
Spring Attack:
Stunning Fist: Pressure Points at 10 + Wis modifier, or if ineligible, adds to Karate
Toughness: used in hit point calculation. In addition, minimum hit points is ST+1.
Tower Shield Proficiency: Adds to Shield skill
Track: Tracking equals 10 + (Survival)/2
Trample: adds to Ride
Two Weapon Defense: Enhanced Parry [10]
Two Weapon Fighting: Ambidexterity [5]
Weapon Finesse: Calculate weapon skills appropriately. Add Armor Familiarity (Fencing) if you use a rapier or other finesse weapon as a primary weapon.
Weapon Focus: adds to weapon skill
Weapon Specialization: Weapon Master, one weapon [20]
Whirlwind Attack: Whirlwind Attack default +4 [5] with favorite weapon

Class Abilities

Cleric: Clerics have True Faith [15]. They have Power Investiture equal to their Wis bonus.

Ranger: Rangers have Power Investiture 1 [10]. Wild empathy becomes Animal Empathy [5]. Each favored enemy is a Higher Purpose (defeat X) [5]; if a specific enemy is chosen more than once, allow Higher Purpose to stack. Combat Style is as per the feats granted; the requirement to wear light armor should be ignored. Woodland stride is +5 Move (Only to negate treacherous ground, -40%; Natural undergrowth only, -40%) [5]. Swift tracker adds to Tracking skill. Evasion is Enhanced Dodge (No more than light encumbrance, -10%) [14]. Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight each add one level of Chameleon (No Signature, +20%) [6 per level].

Monk: Trained by a Master [30]. A monk’s unarmed strike provides Blunt Claws [3]. A monk with a Wis bonus gains Combat Reflexes [15]; if you have Combat Reflexes, add Danger Sense [15] instead. Add one level of Enhanced Dodge [15] per point of Wis bonus past +1. If you have Stunning Strike and are 2nd level or higher, add Pressure Point Strike (Karate) default +2 [3]. Flurry of blows is incorporated into Trained by a Master, but add Extra Attack [25] at 9th and 11th levels. Evasion is Enhanced Dodge (No more than Light encumbrance, -10%) [14]; Improved Evasion raises this to Enhanced Dodge 2 (No more than Light encumbrance, -10%) [27]. Fast movement may change Basic Move; if your Basic Move is not at least (your D&D speed in feet)/5 + 1, increase it. Still mind is Resistant (Mind Control spells, +3) [5]. Slow fall is Catfall [15]; add 20th level, add Cosmic, any distance with no damage provided you can reach a vertical surface, +50% [22]. Purity of body is Immunity (Disease) [15]. Wholeness of body is +15 HP (Only to replace lost HP, -20%; Requires Ready, -10%; Magic, -10%) [18]. Diamond body is Immunity (Poison) (Magic, -10%) [14]. Abundant Step is Warp (Range Limit, 500 yards, -35%; Magic, -10%) [65]. Diamond soul is Magic Resistance 2 (Improved, +150%; Switchable, +10%) [10]. Quivering palm is Hand of Death (from Martial Arts) [50]. Timeless body is Longevity [2]. Empty body is Insubstantiality (Can carry objects, no encumbrance, +10%; Costs Fatigue, 1 FP/second, -10%; Can be harmed by magical physical attacks, although you gain +1 DB against such attacks, -5%; Magic, -10%) [68].

Perfect self is a meta-trait, which includes DR 10 (Not versus magical attacks, -10%) [18].

Miscelaneous Level-Based Abilities

Extra Attack: Add Extra Attack (Multi-strike, +20%) [30] at BAB +11 or higher.
Luck: Add Luck (Defensive, -20%) [12] at level 6. Make it Extraordinary Luck (Defensive, -20%) [24] at level 12 and Ridiculous Luck (Defensive, -20%) [48] at level 18.

[pawsplay]

CREATURES

Monster Conversion from D&D 3e to GURPS Fourth Edition Guidelines

ST: For anything under 20, just use ST = Str. In both systems, a 20 is four times the lifting capacity of a ten. However, you can figure more precisely, and you will have to do this for higher scores.

DX: 10 + Dex modifier.

IQ: 10 + Int modifier for most things. For animals, a Int of 1 equals an IQ of 1; for Int 2+, IQ is equal to 2 or the creature’s Wis bonus, whichever is higher. A creature of the animal type should not have an IQ of more than 5, however.

HT: 10 + Con modifier.

Hit Points: In general, just use ST for animals and natural humanoids. Some monsters, however, are much tougher.

Monster Defenses

Combat is handled substantially differently in 3e than in GURPS. In particular, creatures in D&D often have arbitrarily large natural armor bonuses. Damage Reduction in D&D is an exotic defense, but all armor works that way in GURPS. Thus, these guidelines are necessarily loose.

For creatures with a hide, start with standard GURPS guidelines. In general, a creature with a tough hide will have a DR of 1 if it is a Medium animal in D&D and gains one point per size category. In general, creatures with light hides with small bonuses in D&D will not have DR in GURPS.

For unusual beings such as demons and the like, start by ascertaining if the creature is “tough,” whether, for instance, it has a natural armor bonus of +2 or higher at size Medium and is higher for larger creatures. If so, give it DR 1 at size Medium and +1 DR per size category.

Now, let us address DR (D&D). In general, this trait reflects preternatural toughness. For this reason, Damage Resistance might be much higher. If (natural armor bonus)/4 is higher than the values given above, use that instead of the size-based figure above. If the creature has DR x/magic or x/adamantine, in most cases you will simply want to add the DR (D&D) to the creature’s Damage Resistance. If it has DR x/silver or something along those lines, add Damage Resistance with an appropriate Limitation. If the creature has DR x/-, give it that number of points of Damage Resistance and add Hardened to all of its DR.

Now you need to figure out if the creature’s hit points need to be adjusted for its toughness. For the creature’s hit points, you will use either its ST or an alternative calculation. There is no alternative calculation for creatures with only 1 HD. Otherwise, its alternative hit points will be its D&D hit points (if less than 10) or 10 + (D&D hit points/10). Now subtract four times the creature’s Damage Resistance from its natural armor; if there is anything remaining, add this amount to its alternative hit points.

A deflection bonus of +1 to +5 is an equal amount of Damage Resistance with the Force Field Enhancement, probably with Affects Insubstantial as well.

Spell resistance is one or more points of Magic Resistance (Improved, +150%; Switchable, +10%). A rough guideline is (SR - CR)/2 (minimum 1). Energy damage in GURPS usually scales much closer to weapon damage, so limited DR = (energy resistance/2). If the creature already has DR, try to bundle it together. In that case, part of the DR might be limited to weapon damage only, or different kinds of energy damage only.

Monster Combat Abilities

Many animals will simply use their DX to attack. However, if a creature has formidable attack abilities, you can calculate its Brawling as for a character; 10 + (melee attack bonus)/2, to a maximum of DX+2. If the creature is a magical beast of low intelligence, just assume Brawling DX+2.

That same formula will work for magical beasts, dragons, and the like, but only up to a point. Attack bonuses in D&D tend to scale arbitrarily. Intelligent creatures are not limited to DX+2 in Brawling. However, there are diminishing returns as well as diminishing realism for very high Brawling levels. Thus, for powerful creatures, Brawling should not exceed the higher of DX+2 and CR.

Innate Attack skill is usually going to be 10 + (ranged attack bonus)/2, not to exceed the higher of DX+2 and CR.

Most Feats can be ignored or rolled up into the stats already calculated above, but some deserve special mention. Multidexterity should usually translate into one level of Extra Attack. Improved Natural Attack usually means Sharp claws or +1 Striking ST.

Many effects are going to be either an Affliction, Binding, or Innate Attack. The level of Advantage for a spell-like ability is usually going to be its spell level/2. In the case of damaging abilities such as breath weapons, it is usually going to be the creature’s HD/4. If an ability does damage and you want to more finely represent it, take the average damage per attack and divide it by 4 and take that many levels. If the attack is a jet, cone, or area, divide it by three again.

In general, it is safe to assume a creature’s movement, in squares, is equivalent to its GURPS movement in yards.

Examples:

Adult Red Dragon
ST 130; DX 10; IQ 13; HT 15.
Will 18; Per 19; Speed 6.35; Move 8.
SM +6; 20,000 lbs.
Traits: Combat Reflexes; Discriminatory Smell; Enhanced Move (Flight); DR 10; Flight (Winged); Night Vision 2; Quadruped; Fangs; Talons; Fire Subtype (DR vs. fire/heat 22); Innate Attack 5d burning (Cone, 17 yards, Costs 2 Fatigue, No Range); Striker (Tail, Cannot parry).
Skills: Brawling-15, Innate Attack (breath)-15.

Stone Golem
ST 55; DX 9; IQ 0; HT 10.
Will 12; Per 10; Speed 5.75; Move 4.
SM +1; 2000 lbs.
Traits: Construct; DR 14; Striker (Limb); Darkvision; Static (Magic, not versus Earth magic); Night Vision 2; Affliction 3 (Disadvantage: Reduced Time Rate, Short Range; Based on HT vs. Will); Stone Golem Magic Vulnerability.

Notes on Types, Subtypes and Abilities

Cold and Fire Subtype: Immunity to Cold (or Heat); Vulnerability to Heat (or cold); and DR versus cold (or heat/fire) of 15 + (CR/2).
Undead: Doesn’t Breathe; Immunity to Metabolic Hazards; Injury Tolerance (Unliving); Night Vision 2; Fragile (Unnatural).

[pawsplay]

D&D Skeleton, roughly, based on the above:

ST 13, DX 11, HT 10, IQ 1; HP 11, FP 10, Per 10, Will 11; Basic Speed 6.
Traits: DR 1, undead traits, DR +5 (crushing only or cold only), DR +10 (only versus cold), Blunt Claws
Skills: Broadsword-11; Shield-11.