Active defense debate o_Ô

[Der Wanderer]

- Talk to your players, maybe they like beeing Munshkins and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that (At least we munshkins are not dull ;) )*, and maybe with not being able to be a Munshkin they will think your GM-style dull...
-Use some storytelling elements, when nubers stop beeing everything...
-Some people munshkinize their characters for the fun of doing this, they won't mind having less CPs to spend than their LAZY commerades and ultimately everybody will be equally powerfull...

- Just set a limit for Dodge (eg. no more than 13); probabely the much better solution, than creating a technique
- Dodge is quite expensive if you buy up basic speed as Ellie mentionend (Remember 19CP give at least +4 Skill levels and +2 for a Hard Technique!!! Do this for your favourite weapon and for Brawling or something and you are safe... +4 Basic Speed (+1 Dodge) costs 20CP)
- The rest has already been mentioned so no need to repeat it

*In my group we have heroes ranging from Superman to Peter Parker before the Spider-bite but everybody is happy with his role so no problem, and after all not every problem can be solved by force. The point is as long as all players are happy the GM should be happy too.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Twyll

...but now that you can buy Speed as a base attribute there's no limit on it.

Speed is not a base attribute, its a secondary characteristic with a recommended limit of +/- 2.00 from the calculated value except for nonhumans and supers. I'd be inclined to extend to nonhumans the same limit, but just not count any racial modifier against it.

[Twyll]

Oh my... I didn't mean to hurt anyone with the words munchkin and dull, i was just trying to er... make some bad joke (i'm not angry at all with my players). Actually my sense of humour might be corrupted by the Dark Side (i have to confess i wasn't always a dull player eh eh). Sorry for the mess guys, i 'll change the text to something more correct. And thanks for your helpfull replies all -)

[Twyll]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Remember, a character can only Dodge an attack he/she is aware of. <---This is important.

Hmmm evil Cccwebs :-))). I can imagine my next session :

"- You're ambushed by a group of stealthed crossbowmen. You're not cautious at the time, so you won't get a Per roll to spot them. They have Stealth 14, let's see if they hide successfully.
- Aaaargh !!
- Noooooooo !!
- Damn b<biiip>s !!
- Nevermind we have light encombrance and base dodge like 12, we'll dodge and drop and get a 14 roll eh eh.
- Ok they all succeed. You get no dodge roll as you're not aware of the attack. Everyone's got armor ?
- This is a dirty trick, LOL !
- We're all gonna die !!
- Ok I quit GURPS, i won't play anything if it's not D20.
...."

[Stephane_Theriault]

Originally Posted by Twyll

Oh my... I didn't mean to hurt anyone with the words munchkin and dull, i was just trying to er... make some bad joke (i'm not angry at all with my players). Actually my sense of humour might be corrupted by the Dark Side (i have to confess i wasn't always a dull player eh eh). Sorry for the mess guys, i 'll change the text to something more correct. And thanks for your helpfull replies all -)

I can't speak about the others, but I DID take it as a joke. And my answer (except for the rules part) was meant as a joke also. So no worry.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Twyll

You're ambushed by a group of stealthed crossbowmen. You're not cautious at the time, so you won't get a Per roll to spot them. They have Stealth 14, let's see if they hide successfully.
...."[/I]

Why deny them the PER roll?

[Twyll]

Originally Posted by Ellie the Technomancer

If you can't retreat, you have to have a (Dodge - Encumbrance) of 11, which is almost unheard of.

A duellist character with DX 13 [60], HT 13 [30] and Speed +0,5 [10] (high power gaming) has a basic Speed of 6.5 + 0,5 = 7,0, for a Dodge of 10. If he has Combat Reflexes, this levels his Dodge to 11. He wears leather armor and a fine sword in combat, wich is no encombrance at all for a ST 10 man. This makes him an excellent swordsman on 1 to one fights, and hence a tough one to take down as HT 13 allows good probability to resist stun and unconsciousness. Here we are for 100 character points. And I'm not talking about the Increased Dodge/Parry advantages, bonuses for acrobatic dodge, retreat, drop prone and the like.

In fact the debate is not about munchkinism, but more about how to make fight sequences not during hours in a munchkin game session.

[Claudius]

Salvete

Welcome to the forum, Twyll!

Originally Posted by Twyll

a problem I encounter using GURPS rules with my players. Some of them are somewhat of munchkins and try to abuse the rules by creating charcters with fantastic Dodge scores (14+). In 3E there was the 13+ rule, wich disapeared in 4E (did I miss something ?), but now that you can buy Speed as a base attribute there's no limit on it.

Remember, Twyll, that GURPS is a generic game, not intended to model only humans, but all (or almost all) you can conceive. This is the reason there's no limit to Speed, nor Dodge. If you don't want them to have so high a dodge, put a limit. In every case, having a dodge 14+ is not so easy, even if you buy Speed. In order to get a +1 to Dodge buying speed, one should to invest 20CPs. 20CPs for a +1 Speed (and Dodge) isn't cheap, if your PCs are designed on 100 or 150 CPs, they won't be able to buy much Speed, and if they're designed on many CPs, you should expect over the top PCs.

If you want them to have so high a Dodge, but you want to injury them... just remember Deceptive attacks.

Originally Posted by Twyll

(like the 13+ dodge rule in 3E)

Sorry, but I don't know what you mean, I can't remember that rule. Where is it?

Originally Posted by Twyll

- Dodge becomes a Technique defaulting from Weapon Skill-2 or DX-2, cannot exceed prerequisite (lowers probability of dodging bullets as it can't be improved for range weapons)
- Parry becomes a Technique defaulting from Weapon Skill-2, cannot exceed prerequisite

I wouldn't do that, because it makes getting a high Dodge or Parry a LOT CHEAPER. If you think it's easy to have a high Dodge, just imagine how it would be if all the points devoted to Dodge went to those techniques and the adequate weapon skill...

I hope it helped.

Valete

[PK]

Originally Posted by Twyll

A duellist character with DX 13 [60], HT 13 [30] and Speed +0,5 [10] (high power gaming) has a basic Speed of 6.5 + 0,5 = 7,0, for a Dodge of 10. If he has Combat Reflexes, this levels his Dodge to 11. He wears leather armor and a fine sword in combat, wich is no encombrance at all for a ST 10 man. This makes him an excellent swordsman on 1 to one fights, and hence a tough one to take down as HT 13 allows good probability to resist stun and unconsciousness. Here we are for 100 character points. And I'm not talking about the Increased Dodge/Parry advantages, bonuses for acrobatic dodge, retreat, drop prone and the like.

In fact the debate is not about munchkinism, but more about how to make fight sequences not during hours in a munchkin game session.

As has been said on this thread, Deceptive Attacks and Feints are the way to go against someone with a ridiculous Dodge. (A ridiculous Parry is much easier to get, but it's also easier to defeat -- just send multiple attackers, or one attacker with lots of Extra Attacks.) A skilled fighter can give the person a -2 to their Dodge easily, cutting your sample character's odds of Dodging almost in half.

[Twyll]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Why deny them the PER roll?

It's in the rules, dude (B222, Stealth skill). I think it's a good one as it prevents the proliferation of bulging eyes or dog-eared elf mutants(with Per 20 scores) -)