Active defense debate o_Ô

[Stephane_Theriault]

Originally Posted by Twyll

I'd like to have some HO about a problem I encounter using GURPS rules with my players. Some of them are somewhat of munchkins and try to abuse the rules by creating charcters with fantastic Dodge scores (14+). In 3E there was the 13+ rule, wich disapeared in 4E (did I miss something ?), but now that you can buy Speed as a base attribute there's no limit on it. From that point I considered two options:

1- Changing munchkin players for dull ones
2- Changing the rules

So what ye thinkin' 'bout it ?

That you are calling us non-munchkin players dull? ;) (I do play in high-powered games, but high-powered game != MUNCHKIN!).

As rogue said, Deceptive Attack and Feint are your friends. Also, Dodge 14 is not THAT easy to get: (Dodge - Encumbrance) of 8 (hard to get unless you're very strong or wearing minimal armor), Combat Reflexes, Medium Shield and Retreat. If you can't retreat, you have to have a (Dodge - Encumbrance) of 11, which is almost unheard of. Yes, you can boost your Basic Speed, but it costs 5 points per +0.25 (don't confuse this with Increased Move). And you can't retreat AT ALL against missile weapons.

Just have your opponents act intelligently and concentrate on one or two characters at a time instead of just engaging the PCs in a series of one-on-one duels.

[garfield]

Originally Posted by Twyll

1- Changing munchkin players for dull ones

Originally Posted by Ellie the Technomancer

That you are calling us non-munchkin players dull? ;) (I do play in high-powered games, but high-powered game != MUNCHKIN!).

I read Twyll first solution as "he does not have other players: either Munchkins or dull ones", not as "non-Munchkins equal dull".

[Der Wanderer]

- Talk to your players, maybe they like beeing Munshkins and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that (At least we munshkins are not dull ;) )*, and maybe with not being able to be a Munshkin they will think your GM-style dull...
-Use some storytelling elements, when nubers stop beeing everything...
-Some people munshkinize their characters for the fun of doing this, they won't mind having less CPs to spend than their LAZY commerades and ultimately everybody will be equally powerfull...

- Just set a limit for Dodge (eg. no more than 13); probabely the much better solution, than creating a technique
- Dodge is quite expensive if you buy up basic speed as Ellie mentionend (Remember 19CP give at least +4 Skill levels and +2 for a Hard Technique!!! Do this for your favourite weapon and for Brawling or something and you are safe... +4 Basic Speed (+1 Dodge) costs 20CP)
- The rest has already been mentioned so no need to repeat it

*In my group we have heroes ranging from Superman to Peter Parker before the Spider-bite but everybody is happy with his role so no problem, and after all not every problem can be solved by force. The point is as long as all players are happy the GM should be happy too.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

The point is as long as all players are happy the GM should be happy too.

I would take exception to that statment as it implies that a GM goal is to amke his players happy. as opsend to have fun with his friends.

It is distntyl possible for the players to be happy and the GM not. But this is a stong indcation that there migh be a play style mismatch.

[Twyll]

Oh my... I didn't mean to hurt anyone with the words munchkin and dull, i was just trying to er... make some bad joke (i'm not angry at all with my players). Actually my sense of humour might be corrupted by the Dark Side (i have to confess i wasn't always a dull player eh eh). Sorry for the mess guys, i 'll change the text to something more correct. And thanks for your helpfull replies all -)

[Stephane_Theriault]

Originally Posted by Twyll

Oh my... I didn't mean to hurt anyone with the words munchkin and dull, i was just trying to er... make some bad joke (i'm not angry at all with my players). Actually my sense of humour might be corrupted by the Dark Side (i have to confess i wasn't always a dull player eh eh). Sorry for the mess guys, i 'll change the text to something more correct. And thanks for your helpfull replies all -)

I can't speak about the others, but I DID take it as a joke. And my answer (except for the rules part) was meant as a joke also. So no worry.

[Claudius]

Salvete

Welcome to the forum, Twyll!

Originally Posted by Twyll

a problem I encounter using GURPS rules with my players. Some of them are somewhat of munchkins and try to abuse the rules by creating charcters with fantastic Dodge scores (14+). In 3E there was the 13+ rule, wich disapeared in 4E (did I miss something ?), but now that you can buy Speed as a base attribute there's no limit on it.

Remember, Twyll, that GURPS is a generic game, not intended to model only humans, but all (or almost all) you can conceive. This is the reason there's no limit to Speed, nor Dodge. If you don't want them to have so high a dodge, put a limit. In every case, having a dodge 14+ is not so easy, even if you buy Speed. In order to get a +1 to Dodge buying speed, one should to invest 20CPs. 20CPs for a +1 Speed (and Dodge) isn't cheap, if your PCs are designed on 100 or 150 CPs, they won't be able to buy much Speed, and if they're designed on many CPs, you should expect over the top PCs.

If you want them to have so high a Dodge, but you want to injury them... just remember Deceptive attacks.

Originally Posted by Twyll

(like the 13+ dodge rule in 3E)

Sorry, but I don't know what you mean, I can't remember that rule. Where is it?

Originally Posted by Twyll

- Dodge becomes a Technique defaulting from Weapon Skill-2 or DX-2, cannot exceed prerequisite (lowers probability of dodging bullets as it can't be improved for range weapons)
- Parry becomes a Technique defaulting from Weapon Skill-2, cannot exceed prerequisite

I wouldn't do that, because it makes getting a high Dodge or Parry a LOT CHEAPER. If you think it's easy to have a high Dodge, just imagine how it would be if all the points devoted to Dodge went to those techniques and the adequate weapon skill...

I hope it helped.

Valete

[Kevmann10583]

Well, I was actually confronted with a similar problem, and this is how I fixed it (it tends to work real well as is a relatively simple rules change)...

"Every attack is a deceptive attack, meaning that for every 2 that you beat your weapon skill you reduce the opponents defense roll by 1. Alternatively, rolling above your weapon skill is not considered a miss! However, for every 1 that you miss your weapon skill, your opponent gets an additional 1 to his active defense. Any attack against an opponent without an active defense is made at +5."

So now, you can see that if someone has a 14+dodge or a 16+ in another active defense, I can throw enemies with high weapon scores against them and that will reduce their defenses enough were it makes the combat go faster and be equal. This also fixes the problem were the person with a dodge score of 12 defends 75% of the time against a master swordsman with a skill of 20. The higher your skill in weapons, the easier it is to hit an enemy.

Of course, this makes attacks much more deadly then base rules, so then I made this rule:

"Due to the increased power of attacks, defenses based on skills will now have the same value as the appropriate skill instead of half the skill plus three. For example, under the old rules a Shield skill of 14 would give you a Block of 10 (14/2 + 3). However, with the new rules your Block will be the same value as your Shield, in this case 14."

Simple, and it makes non-dodge defenses (parry and block) as easy to increase as your weapon or shield skill is. So now, you can see that the 14+ Dodgers (IE 12 base dodge, +2 acrobatics) will be at a disadvantage to those that rely on block or parry for their main attacks.

It seems to be working really well!

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Kevmann10583

"Every attack is a deceptive attack, meaning that for every 2 that you beat your weapon skill you reduce the opponents defense roll by 1. Alternatively, rolling above your weapon skill is not considered a miss! However, for every 1 that you miss your weapon skill, your opponent gets an additional 1 to his active defense. Any attack against an opponent without an active defense is made at +5."

The problem with this, is the same as the QC, in that you pretty much eliminate hit locations as a valid realistic option.
Who's going to target a hand, or an armpit, when it means a +2 bonus to the defender on top of the reduced chance to hit?

[Kevmann10583]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

The problem with this, is the same as the QC, in that you pretty much eliminate hit locations as a valid realistic option.
Who's going to target a hand, or an armpit, when it means a +2 bonus to the defender on top of the reduced chance to hit?

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of that because it really hasn't come up in our game. So far, when the person is trying to kill someone, they normally always go for the torso or the vitals. They go for the arm, hand, leg, feet if they want to cripple the opponent without killing him.

If you think about it, going for something like an arm (under my rules) basically means that the defender gets to keep an additional point of defense that he would not have usually gotten if the attacker had targeted the torso. It makes sense to me, because the arm has half the HP as the torso so it is much easier to debilitate (an in the case of fantasy humanoids, taking out their sword arm means they are screwed), but in trade the enemy will be harder to hit because they get to keep that extra one point of defense.

EDIT: Just wanted to put in a reminder here that for every TWO that the attacker passes his weapon score, the defender gets ONE point to his defense. So hitting an arm at -2 basically means the opponent keeps a point of defense that he would have lost.

However, I can also see your point that the -2 to the skill also means that the attacker has a greater chance of failing the attack roll all together. That is why I have the clause were a miss is not actually a miss, but gives the opponent bonuses to their defense. I know it only partially fixes the problem, but it is the only solution I can see.

So, in conclusion, it Isn’t a perfect fix, but it does fix a lot more problems then it causes IMO.