Active defense debate o_Ô

[Twyll]

I'd like to have some HO about a problem I encounter using GURPS rules with my players. Some of them are somewhat of munchkins and try to abuse the rules by creating charcters with fantastic Dodge scores (14+). In 3E there was the 13+ rule, wich disapeared in 4E (did I miss something ?), but now that you can buy Speed as a base attribute there's no limit on it. From that point I considered two options:

1- Changing munchkin players for wiser ones
2- Changing the rules

As option 2 was far easier, I find out that ruling active defense as a quick contest (like the 13+ dodge rule in 3E) solved the problem. Here's my revolutionary theory : melee defense is always related to melee skill, from parrying to dodging attacks, as melee weapon skill (but not ranged weapon skill) includes knowledge of taking advantageous position to overcome a foe's defense AND avoid her (omg!!) attacks. This means a skilled swordsman will be good at dodging attacks with a sword in hand, because is accustomed of placing himself using a sword, but not that good at dodging pummeling attacks for example. Considering that basic training emphasizes attack maneuvers i ruled that:

- Speed is used to compute movement rate and initiative
- Dodge becomes a Technique defaulting from Weapon Skill-2 or DX-2, cannot exceed prerequisite (lowers probability of dodging bullets as it can't be improved for range weapons)
- Parry becomes a Technique defaulting from Weapon Skill-2, cannot exceed prerequisite

So what ye thinkin' 'bout it ?

[roguebfl]

High Defences Are not a Problem. Most combats Are ment to a srease of secuffly defeended attacks with the occation "good" one getting though.

And Deceptive attack (and Feint) allowing greater skill opens the ability to lower active defences.


and ther alsoe the Mook rules for speed up un importnat fights

[Twyll]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

And Deceptive attack (and Feint) allowing greater skill opens the ability to lower active defences.

Hmmm am I stoOpid. And that would enforce the use of techniques in skilled fights. Thanks for this illuminated reply ^_^

[Skullcrusher]

Originally Posted by Twyll

1- Changing munchkin players for dull ones

What I don't get is this comment. You post here complaining about munchkin players but yet you say non-muchkin players are dull? So which is it?

Just tell them you are limiting the dodges to 13 and be done with it.

Peace out

[Mehmet]

AND, there is always the grenade - or equivalent - if the stakes are that high :P

Cheers...

[cccwebs]

Ack. This board has already beaten this horse beyond death and now some necromancer raises the skeletal remains.

Remember, a character can only Dodge an attack he/she is aware of. <---This is important.
Dodge is much less effective against an area attack.
Deceptive Attacks can work wonders in Melee.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Remember, a character can only Dodge an attack he/she is aware of. <---This is important.

True, and a Sub poiount to that, Attacks that you are aware of But can not see the source of, are at -4.

The Über thread and it's decendins go int much detal on the topic 8)

[ArchonShiva]

Originally Posted by Twyll

- Speed is used to compute movement rate and initiative
- Dodge becomes a Technique defaulting from Weapon Skill-2 or DX-2, cannot exceed prerequisite (lowers probability of dodging bullets as it can't be improved for range weapons)
- Parry becomes a Technique defaulting from Weapon Skill-2, cannot exceed prerequisite

My last rewrite of 3e had dodge a bit as an 'all-out' action : if you use it, your next round is at -4 to attacks or whatever. In 4e I might allow players to take -3 to dodge (i.e. use the 3e score) to avoid the -4.

And I'm a dodge bunny. So I was toning down something I use, not something which annoys me. The problem is basically not that dodge is high, it's that dodge is FREE.

[Stephane_Theriault]

Originally Posted by Twyll

I'd like to have some HO about a problem I encounter using GURPS rules with my players. Some of them are somewhat of munchkins and try to abuse the rules by creating charcters with fantastic Dodge scores (14+). In 3E there was the 13+ rule, wich disapeared in 4E (did I miss something ?), but now that you can buy Speed as a base attribute there's no limit on it. From that point I considered two options:

1- Changing munchkin players for dull ones
2- Changing the rules

So what ye thinkin' 'bout it ?

That you are calling us non-munchkin players dull? ;) (I do play in high-powered games, but high-powered game != MUNCHKIN!).

As rogue said, Deceptive Attack and Feint are your friends. Also, Dodge 14 is not THAT easy to get: (Dodge - Encumbrance) of 8 (hard to get unless you're very strong or wearing minimal armor), Combat Reflexes, Medium Shield and Retreat. If you can't retreat, you have to have a (Dodge - Encumbrance) of 11, which is almost unheard of. Yes, you can boost your Basic Speed, but it costs 5 points per +0.25 (don't confuse this with Increased Move). And you can't retreat AT ALL against missile weapons.

Just have your opponents act intelligently and concentrate on one or two characters at a time instead of just engaging the PCs in a series of one-on-one duels.

[garfield]

Originally Posted by Twyll

1- Changing munchkin players for dull ones

Originally Posted by Ellie the Technomancer

That you are calling us non-munchkin players dull? ;) (I do play in high-powered games, but high-powered game != MUNCHKIN!).

I read Twyll first solution as "he does not have other players: either Munchkins or dull ones", not as "non-Munchkins equal dull".