The Astral Plane, Elder Things, Demons and Spirits

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

.AFAICT, there is no difference made in Dungeon Fantasy. The Astral Vision spell, frinst, allows you to see any insubstantial entity, without regard to source.

So in DF the astral plane, ethereal plane and spirit world are all the same?

[b-dog]

Will the spell Affect Spirits allow a weapon it is cast upon be able to harm a person with Ethereal Body? What about a psi traveling astrally? Thanks.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by b-dog

So in DF the astral plane, ethereal plane and spirit world are all the same?

As far as I can tell, yes.

Will the spell Affect Spirits allow a weapon it is cast upon be able to harm a person with Ethereal Body? What about a psi traveling astrally?

Seems like it, based on a direct (but not strict) reading of the spell's description. The important part appears to be that it allows the subject to affect insubstantial entities. "Spirit" appears to be used as a general designator for incorporeal animates, rather than for a specific type [cf. the enchantment Ghost Weapon].

I don't consider myself an expert on DF, so the above are no more than my opinions... the rulings I would make for my own games. I'm pretty confident on the two questions about Affect Spirits, but I can't say for certain what the author's intention was regarding the separation of astral, ethereal, and spirit planes. LIS, you're best off checking with Kromm if you want the straight dope.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by b-dog

So in DF the astral plane, ethereal plane and spirit world are all the same?

[EDIT, after reading Not another shrubbery's posts: Maybe the answer is the simpler one, following the straight Dungeon Fantasy approach: so, maybe yes.

But I think] the main point is you need to pick a criteria for making these distinctions yourself, if you want distinctions. GURPS 3e Spirits can be useful, as it is 4e Fantasy, miscellaneous RPG material, real world sources and/or your own imagination, combined or not with some of this.

Dungeon Fantasy definitely makes assumptions, but not to the point you are asking for ;^)

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People around here only can offer -and they are doing it- possible guidelines, both in crunch and fluff, for handling the questions you posited in the thread.

So, you are asking for opinions and possible developments from a DF angle. All that is optional and relative to each gaming group.

DF definitions as "Demon: creature subject to the cleric spell Banish" and "Elder Thing: not subject to the cleric spell Banish", easily can imply meaningful cosmological assumptions like a somewhat clear distinction between Elder Things and Demons, and that straight invulnerability of the first of them towards a divine or spiritual action: a cleric spell like Banish... Such thing can be seen as a hint of maltheism in a Dungeon Fantasy world ("They can't be Banished because they are the Lords!?"), but DF does this because its nature is to put challenges to the adventurers: you defeat Demons, ok; the next challenge is a weirder and/or tougher enemy, and that is why the Elder Things are around there.

If you want to develop things along certain assumptions and even raise all that to a full fledged roleplayed campaign is up to you and you can do it because Dungeon Fantasy is still GURPS despite its assumptions, but it has the focus in which is immediately playable and challenging.

Months ago, in this thread, Kromm left unanswered a question about the Elder Things/Gods.

I think that was prudent.

He claimed:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Elder Gods. These are the gods of lost civilizations, served by insane NPC cultists. They're from Outside Time and Space, and transcend the Good-Evil dispute. (...) In Powers terms, we're talking about two Moral powers, a single Nature power, and a Cosmic power, respectively.

The question was:

Originally Posted by demonsbane

Since Elder Gods (...) do transcend other forces (Cosmic scale), I wonder if Dungeon Fantasy is assuming a maltheistic (3e Religion, p.137; 4e Fantasy, p32) or dystheistic bottom background? ;-)
(slightly edited quote)

You get the idea. Personally, I prefer the vagueness Kromm left in these questions. It makes a more open-ended game.