The Astral Plane, Elder Things, Demons and Spirits

[b-dog]

I am wondering what would be the difference between the astral plane and rthe spirit realm. In myth the astral realm is supposed to be between the other planes and the mortal realm. In psionics it is a little different. The spirit realm seems similar to the astral plane of myth but are they distinct? Also, what about demons and Elder Things in the astral realm, do they have silver cords or do they have complete astral forms? Thanks.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

The terms "astral plane," "spirit realm," etc are completely setting-dependent. What do you want them to mean?

[Refplace]

Yep. Make it as simple or complicated as you want.
Spirit realm, Astral Plane, Limbo, Outer Void, Ethereal Plane, Inner planes, elemental or cosmic planes

[Dantar]

One of the central themes of the Lovecraftian mythos is that human beings can't understand the answer to your question - and when they try they often go insane.

Like Gold&Appel and refplace said, make it what you want, as complicated or as simple as you need it to be: in Lovecraftian fiction there is usually not much explaining and it's very mysterious and shadowy... which is convientent for a GM who doesn't want to explain everything in each exacting detail. ;)

[transmetahuman]

I don't think I've ever seen, read about, or played in a setting that had both astrally projecting mortals and spirits where the two didn't coexist in the same (spirit/astral) realm. Well, Cabal's, Hero's, and other similar four-layer set-ups sort of do it, but I've never really grasped the differences in the "spirit-physics" between Yetzirah and Whatssname, the Gods-Place.

IIRC the 3e Spirits book talked about the distinction, and in any case it would be a great place to look for a discussion of the options a GM might want to look at in determining its (or their) characteristics. Maybe the psionic realm is tied to the dream world and a sort of group unconscious of living/mortal minds, while the spirit/astral is only for dead and never-lived minds. Or the psionic/dream realm doesn't have the "transitive" connections to divine planes. Or psionic astral projection is actually just a form of clairsentience, and doesn't project the soul/spirit at all.

And yeah, b-dog, you really should have broken yourself of the habit of posting as if DF had some kind of standard setting by now. :)

[b-dog]

What I am having trouble with is how to use Psionic Powers in DF. Should a PC astrally project, would there be anything in a dungeon to know? Or would spirits and demons sense a person doing this? Elder Things probably would but Mind Warpers are a little tough to have chasing PCs. I just want to know what would be the default system of DF. If the astral plane and spirit realm are the same then there is no problem, but if they are different than I need to make some more bad guys who lurk around dungeons possibly due to the psychic trauma radiating from them.

[Not another shrubbery]

If you're letting PCs astrally project in DF, you're already in uncharted territory, I think. At that point you might as well just make up whatever sounds good to you. I rather doubt that Sean meant to distinguish between 'astral plane' and 'spirit realm', though you'd have to ask him to be sure.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

If you're letting PCs astrally project in DF, you're already in uncharted territory, I think. At that point you might as well just make up whatever sounds good to you. I rather doubt that Sean meant to distinguish between 'astral plane' and 'spirit realm', though you'd have to ask him to be sure.

But there are psionics already in DF so there should be some rules to use psionic powers IMO. I don't know what would be the best situation though, to have the astral plane be different than the spirit realm or to be the same or even overlap to some degree. I am assuming the ethereal plane is something different from the astral and spirit realm. This is important if the are are spirits or ghosts in a dungeon, a psionist can attack them in the astral realm or first see them before the spirits or ghosts surprise the PCs if the astral plane and spirit realm are the same, if not then the psionist is less useful.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I am wondering what would be the difference between the astral plane and rthe spirit realm. In myth the astral realm is supposed to be between the other planes and the mortal realm. In psionics it is a little different. (...)

For all this you need a worked cosmology for your setting. That would put these (Elder) things in the desired places. However, if you're asking about this, perhaps you're not entirely happy with a completely arbitrary approach. If that is the case, then can be helpful to draw upon non-materialistic cosmologies of real world cultures:

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

(...) I've never really grasped the differences in the "spirit-physics" between Yetzirah and Whatssname, the Gods-Place.

The distinction between these different domains (Yetzirah / Briah in Kabbalah) isn't easy to grasp, nor easy to explain today, but it concerns the differences existing between the Psychic "world" (or domain) and the Spiritual one; from the creatural point of view, it is the difference between soul and spirit, between jinns and angels, or between deceased ancestors and gods -these latter in a "polytheistic" framework. The gap between both domains is huge, beyond any calculus or imagination. On the other hand, the issue has no relation with (classical) physics: that perspective is only applicable to the somatic domain.

Shamanistic cultures and contemporary occultism & witchcraft (mostly for very different reasons) usually blur the distinctions between the before-mentioned domains. They are mainly (if not exclusively) concerned with "Yetzirah".

Originally Posted by b-dog

I don't know what would be the best situation though, to have the astral plane be different than the spirit realm or to be the same or even overlap to some degree.

The Spirit realm "overlaps" the other domains: the Psychic and the Somatic ones. That is because it contains them -see Worlds Within Worlds, Campaigns p. 521. This spiritual overlapping can be apparent (i.e., a Golden-Age world full of manifest miracles), or not; it does depend of the setting.

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

IIRC the 3e Spirits book talked about the distinction, and in any case it would be a great place to look for a discussion of the options a GM might want to look at in determining its (or their) characteristics.

I agree 3e Spirits is a good sourcebook, and I was looking for more stuff coming from there in Thaumatology.

Originally Posted by b-dog

The spirit realm seems similar to the astral plane of myth but are they distinct? Also, what about demons and Elder Things in the astral realm, do they have silver cords or do they have complete astral forms?

Elder Things, Lovecraftian Elder Things aren't but demons without any celestial or spiritual counterpart. They correspond to a sort of "crippled cosmology" where, at most, only the Psychic and Corporeal domains exists, and the lack of the Spiritual domain is the cause of that so-called "absolute" horror -maltheism in 4e Fantasy, p. 32. You aren't going to find easily anything like this except if you look in modern fiction. BTW, the Psychic domain of Yetzirah (with the astral as a synonym if you want or better, as a small subset of it, as the ethereal) lacks of determinations as time and space (at least as they are experienced in the corporeal domain), but it does have "forms" suitable to symbolic portrayal. Silver cords aren't needed.

It is very difficult to play out in a rules-wise manner the distinctions between astral entities and spiritual beings, excepting the later ones are transcendent and much more wiser and powerful. But this power can be, in practice, reduced in your setting: the spiritual beings are angry with humankind and their effective spiritual link in the world has faded away; this reality needs religious rituals and devotion for taking part in the affairs of the world (see sacrifices in 4e Fantasy, p. 31), etc.

If you want your Elder Things more powerful than traditional demons or arch-devils and standing face to face against spiritual beings (or even more, if the demons have the upper hand), you will need to tweak all this because the cosmological dependence of the relations.
...Nevertheless, according this, it is feasible having Elder Things / demons with the upper hand upon the world, for an unspecified time, specially if the spiritual beings aren't acting in the world for any reason (and they can be unknown, long ago forgotten); but that is different than having these demons effectively standing against the Spiritual realm itself: the Psychic can be affected or encompassed by the Spiritual, but not at the inverse -their relation is hierarchical, not symmetrical.

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I rather doubt that Sean meant to distinguish between 'astral plane' and 'spirit realm'

Me too!

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by b-dog

But there are psionics already in DF so there should be some rules to use psionic powers IMO.

Well, there are, to a limited degree. The suggested list of abilities available to PCs (on p40 of The Next Level) is fairly short, the Power Modifier is described, the Talent is on the next page, and we can assume that the advantages work as described in Basic, unless otherwise contradicted in DF. Expanding that list is 'off the map', and calls for interpretations (with an eye toward maintaining balance) by the GM.

I don't know what would be the best situation though, to have the astral plane be different than the spirit realm or to be the same or even overlap to some degree.

AFAICT, there is no difference made in Dungeon Fantasy. The Astral Vision spell, frinst, allows you to see any insubstantial entity, without regard to source.