Are proliferating perks a danger to GURPS?

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

On the other hand, I use darkness penalties extensively in my game - basically, if the character's aren't fighting in broad daylight, I'm imposing a penalty. Yet only two characters have more than a couple points in Nightvision (the ninja and the really-good-at-Per archer), and a third of the characters don't have any points at all.

I'm guessing your players aren't all-knowing munchkins?

Neither are mine, but since this is about picking or not picking traits they can only ever be potential problems. Some of them just have a lot of potential.

Even if ST costed 2 points per level, chances are many groups wouldn't have much a problem since they still just buy the amount of ST they feel is suitable for their characters, not the amount they can to best abuse the trait.

[Pagan]

Hmmm, 2 of the 5 players in my campaign have night vision. I impose darkness penalties a lot. Almost every fight and setting. The best fighters oddly enough are the 3 without night vision. One of the 3 has been playing the same character for 8 years, the best pc warrior in the group, and he doesn't have it.

Night vision is extremely useful, no doubt. Overpriced though, I don't think so. Currently, I'm running a scenario that consists of a town fire and the pcs helping in rescue efforts. The fire is at night but the penalties from smoke and obstructing flame are affecting them a lot more than the darkness penalties.

Balance most often depends on who is doing the balancing.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

"Anything usefull must be expensive"
Anything useful must have a cost that reflects the degree of usefulness.

Yes. And in the degree of usefulness, you should take into account how often it can be used, not only the inherent usefulness. (Lupo problem with most perk seem, for example, to imply they will be in effect always, everytime, everywere)

Originally Posted by RedMattis

"The better it is,the more expensive"
That goes without saying

Not necessarily.
Gameplay issue should be taken into account.
Luck or combat reflexes for example are often somewhat underpriced for the 'fun' aspect, to improve gameplay
Likewise, i think, for some perks. They are cheap to allow fun, customization and diversity of built.
IQ is the prime example here. It should cost about 50 points/level.

Originally Posted by RedMattis

"the more player (want to) use it, the more expensive it should be"
Incorrect. That was part of the logic behind the old pricing of Unaging (3rd edition). What the player wants has nothing to do with the cost.
Playing trenchcoat guys isn't more expensive because trenchcoat guys are cool. What an interesting and suitable character is, is up to the GM and the Players, not the system. Pirate Vampire Ninja Cyborgs should not be discouraged because they are weird/cool by the system itself.

I agree. But not everyone do so, apparently. See some of the posts above on weapon bond.

Originally Posted by RedMattis

"Each of those count: A truly good advantage usefull to everyone everytime should cost an extreme price"
Obviously it should be expensive if it is useful, by what logic did you think the prices for the advantages were set? Secret Illuminati meanings? :P

Then, why is DR or nightvision so much cheaper than speaking to plant ?

Originally Posted by RedMattis

"Anything exotic(non possible on a mainline human) should cost twice as more, at least"
Heck No! That contradicts the nature of a open point-buy system

I agree. But not everyone do so, apparently.
Remenber that i was trying to state how i perceive some people vision of balance, not my own views :)

Originally Posted by RedMattis

"If several way exist to get the same result under the rules, the one with the highest cost is correct, the other are too cheap"
Advantages should be measured, not just from the context of the system, but from the actual advantage which can be distilled from it.
Basing advantages on advantages on advantages alone is not a good idea, chances are the value of the last will change like a months old rumor from the city in the east.

I am sorry, i don't understand what you are saying here. (English is not my native language).

Originally Posted by RedMattis

"Anything that can be abused by the player will be, so cost should reflect that."
The discussion around the Accessibility limitation confirms this to be true to some degree.

Yes, the limited Dr for example. And i am not sure i agree.
Controling playyer behavior should be the GM task, not the creation system.
But it is something i can understand.

Originally Posted by RedMattis

"Game consist mostly of combat. So, anything that boost combat should be more expensive, as it will be used more"
Ever wondered why Enhanced block costs a whooping 25 points?
The key word isn't combat though, it is Adventure. That includes tools for finding clues, sneaking around, socializing, surviving 'hazards, combat...
Being really good at any of these is expensive, and just how expensive being great within your niché costs depends largely on how useful that niché is.
Being the best general-math guy in the country is a heck lot cheaper than being the best all around fighter.

Enhanced block is so expensive because while some defense is good, too much defense destroy the gameplay, imho.
And i agree with you on the adventure approach.
But something should not be more expensive simply because it is related to combat.

Anyway, each GM is free to modify and adjust the game how he want it to be, but on a theorical standpoint, i sometimes feel hard to understand why people focus so much on perfect pricing of ability, especially since the frame of pricing is so subjective...
For me, 'if it work, don't t fix it' is the rule.

celjabba

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Pagan

Balance most often depends on who is doing the balancing.

A very good point. Unfortunately GURPS does not attempt to construct guidelines for setting/theme modification of traits.

I remember BESM having skill cost adjustments for different settings/themes, one of their best ideas in that otherwise ridiculously unbalanced system.

I myself posted some ideas as for balancing advantages for effective TL (Basically what degree of TL equipment was typically in the PCs hands), but I haven't seen any playstyle/setting/theme adjustment guidelines yet*.


* If there are some lying around on the forums, I'd love to get a link ;)

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Gah, just treat it like Exotic Weapon Training (fighting with a large shield in the other hand).

I think that's exactly what it is, but perhaps not a great way to sell it to someone who also thought Exotic Weapon Training was overpowered.

Originally Posted by Lupo

The idea that all Perks presented in Martial Arts are equivalent is just plain silly.

Yes, that's probably true. But why is this so important?

Regardless of how much you trust GURPS point-balance, it's at best going to be balance between different efficiently-built characters, not between variably-efficient builds of the same character.

Shield Wall Training clearly is going to have an impact on balance between large shields and non-large-shield configurations. But whether it makes the balance better or worse is not a question that you can answer by saying it ought to cost 8 points in simple weapon-skill raises instead.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

I'm guessing your players aren't all-knowing munchkins?

Neither are mine, but since this is about picking or not picking traits they can only ever be potential problems. Some of them just have a lot of potential.

Even if ST costed 2 points per level, chances are many groups wouldn't have much a problem since they still just buy the amount of ST they feel is suitable for their characters, not the amount they can to best abuse the trait.

Yes.
if your player build character to fit an idea, not to munchkin, who care if something is slightly overpriced/underpriced ...
if they want to abuse, even the most perfectly built system will not protect against it.

Player in my games often have mismatching cp cost, especially after a few games, so, in my games, absolute fairness in perk point cost is even less of a problem than in other peoples games, of course.

Originally Posted by Lupo

The idea that all Perks presented in Martial Arts are equivalent is just plain silly.

But since Gurps doesnt have the half a point anymore, and even less the hundreth of a point, rounding up and down to one point is to be expected.
moreover, here is nothing that say that all 1 point advantage should have exactly the same level of gameplay effect, especially since it is a purely subjective scale... Imho.


celjabba

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Yes. And in the degree of usefulness, you should take into account how often it can be used, not only the inherent usefulness. (Lupo problem with most perk seem, for example, to imply they will be in effect always, everytime, everywere)

Of course. Frequency of usefullness is an important factor in degree of usefullness. I agree.

Not necessarily.
Gameplay issue should be taken into account.
Luck or combat reflexes for example are often somewhat underpriced for the 'fun' aspect, to improve gameplay
Likewise, i think, for some perks. They are cheap to allow fun, customization and diversity of built.
IQ is the prime example here. It should cost about 50 points/level.

I do agree in part, but only when it comes to the traits 'every warrior would have' (*cough* Combat Reflexes), 'every social butteryfly would pick', but these should be obvious and not to defining, else characters will start looking the same, and that causes problems since one of GURPS big goals is making different types of characters/strategies useful.

Luck is of course a case of 'something... everyone would pick'.

I don't agree on the IQ for 50p/level though. I use 20p/level, but without the Perception and Will included (so technically 30p/level). HT/DX/IQ all seem fairly balanced compared to each other if you ask me.

Then, why is DR or nightvision so much cheaper than speaking to plant?

Seems a bit to specific to go into detail on in this thread. I don't have the books in front of me. Call me lazy ;P

Enhanced block is so expensive because while some defense is good, too much defense destroy the gameplay, imho.

Not if no one ever fights! :P
You are right of course. btw. ;)

But something should not be more expensive simply because it is related to combat.

Agreed again. The cost should be based around how well it solves problems in general, not just fighting.
Creating a 'social goddess' with Charisma 5 and Appearance Transcendent is alarmingly cheap compared to 'somewhat competent warrior'.

Anyway, each GM is free to modify and adjust the game how he want it to be, but on a theorical standpoint, i sometimes feel hard to understand why people focus so much on perfect pricing of ability, especially since the frame of pricing is so subjective...
For me, 'if it work, don't t fix it' is the rule.

celjabba

Well, it is annoying with unbalanced games when you've got a bunch of rules lawyers around, but in truth I wouldn't worry about this kind of thing. Infinite Worlds campaigns where one player can play a 200 point TL 12 soldier, and another a 200 point TL 4 archer or TL 8 superhero is a lot more troublesome, since TL +/-5 doesn't get near evening out the difference between a guy in halfway-indestructible power armor and a plasma rifle versus studded leather armor guy wt. bow, or 6d fire-blast and DR 15 fire-shield super-hero-guy.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

I don't agree on the IQ for 50p/level though. I use 20p/level, but without the Perception and Will included (so technically 30p/level). HT/DX/IQ all seem fairly balanced compared to each other if you ask me.

When i say 'IQ should cost', i was speaking on a number cruncher point of view, not as what i think it should cost in game.
In my game, per and will are also independent stats, and iq still at [20], and i think it work perfectly that way.
(having per and will in iq is, in my opinion, the biggest 'problem' in Gurps 4,
and even then it is not really gamebreaking.)

Otherwise, i also agree with all your others point. look like we meet in the middle:)

Anyway, ad absurdum, here is 'Iq true mathematical cost' for the 'it cost what it cost' crowd.

+1will :[5]
+1 per :[5]
large talent (all 'iq 'skills) ( no reputation-20%, no time learning reduction-20%, cosmic can buy more than 4 lvl+50%) [16]
magery without the training speed bonus [9]
large power talent (all advantage with iq activation roll**)( no reputation-20%, no time learning reduction-20%, cosmic can buy more than 4 lvl+50%) [16]

[51] per level of iq.


**(including but not limited to
+1 to roll to understand a text/a speech
+1 to roll to understand visions
+1 to roll to move your point of perception
+1 to roll to recover from stun
+1 to roll to analyse detect result
+1 to roll to memorize sound/smell/taste
+1 to roll to access memories
+1 to empathy rolls
+1 ... )

celjabba

[DungeonCrawler]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

<snipped>

Well, it is annoying with unbalanced games when you've got a bunch of rules lawyers around, but in truth I wouldn't worry about this kind of thing. Infinite Worlds campaigns where one player can play a 200 point TL 12 soldier, and another a 200 point TL 4 archer or TL 8 superhero is a lot more troublesome, since TL +/-5 doesn't get near evening out the difference between a guy in halfway-indestructible power armor and a plasma rifle versus studded leather armor guy wt. bow, or 6d fire-blast and DR 15 fire-shield super-hero-guy.

Then the obvious solution is to not take a TL 4 archer. Apparently the objective is to "win" some comparison between characters...like who would kill whom or who can kill the most hostiles.

...

Of course, dropped into a world with no recharges for the power armor or plasma rifle and littered with kryptonite for the the superhero, the archer wins hands down. It all depends on what you want from a game.

And if it is a problem, the archer's patron could provide him with TL? mulitpurpose vision gear, a personal force field, a compound bow made of memory material which can have many, many times the draw of the archer's own strength, and rocket-propelled guided missiles for arrows (igniting once they are in-flight). All tailored to be used by a TL 4 character who won't be expected to maintain them, but turns them over to properly trained people for maintenance. That's kind of what Patrons are for...or Wealth (Signature Gear wouldn't really help on this).

All of that said, it does seem to me that too many Perks are intruding into the area that should be covered by skills and techniques. Which seems to indicate that those skills and techniques are overpriced, since no one would want to pay the costs for them.

Note that if the skills were cheaper, then the temptation to buy up stats might be less. (Of course, I'm not sure how to do that and keep anything resembling the current CP costs, so it's not a suggestion, just an observation.)

[c2h5oh]

Originally Posted by Molokh

I am using it. It doesn't move around the standard 'US-only' characters. But it supports useful Compose combos and Right-Alt characters.

Moving the conversation here, since it is getting wildly off-topic.