Are proliferating perks a danger to GURPS?

[Kromm]

All I'll say on Weapon Bond is that "+1 to skill with one weapon in the whole universe" is self-evidently less useful than "+1 to skill with every weapon ever made in one broad class," and in fact represents the most severe possible limitation on the latter case. That's canonically -80%, so Weapon Bond is worth 0.8 point; thus, 1 point a bit of a ***, not a bargain. Weapon Bond is only a bargain in campaigns where the PCs never lose or willingly replace their weapons, and where they can get away with using one weapon for everything from campaign start to campaign finish. In more sensible campaigns, it's entirely balanced.

[Trachmyr]

Personally I'm a big fan of Perks... especialy for racial templates. I think they are a great boon for 4e, allowing characters to be more fully realized than ever before.

Can they be abused... well, everything in Gurps can be abused, if that's the player's goal and the GM is unattentive or inexperienced. But it's kind of like Personal Liberty vs. Big Brother... I'll always choose the "system" that grants me liberty... if a couple of munchkins get through... well that's the price we have to pay, but the alternative is unthinkable.

In otherwords, I'm all for character options... and Perks is a great option IMO... The GM will just have to pay attention to character design... but that's not new at all.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Phaelen Bleux

The ones that worry me the most are the ones that give +1 to a skill (like Weapon Bond, for example). It high skill levels, the PC gets another pip on the dice for just 1 point when it should have cost significantly more to raise the skill level.

A +1 to a skill with any sort of limitations that will actually come up doesn't worry me much. A limitation that is at least as restrictive as a technique, already priced at 1 point per +1, should be fine. And worse case, well a point of skill costs 4 in the limit, and just about any limitation would work as a quirk, so maximum savings is 2 points, unless you are allowing lots of possibly stackable perks for the same skill. I do see proposals with higher bonuses as more iffy.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by malloyd

True. Though nobody took me up on discussing *which ones* are overpowered last time. I think there are a dozen or so, but most of them are fine.

Start a new thread on that subject. I doubt I have much to contribute but it'll be interesting to read.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by malloyd

True. Though nobody took me up on discussing *which ones* are overpowered last time. I think there are a dozen or so, but most of them are fine.

Here is a list of some overpowered Perks (with a suggestion on how much they should cost, e.g., how much I charge for them in my campaign).

Most of those perks are combat-related simply because players are more likely to abuse "fighting" perks than "social" ones. I am including only "realistic" perks, not cinematic ones.

-WEAPON BOND: in the long run you MIGHT regret taking it, but in most campaigns is a very good deal - too good that MOST fighters will want it. You get +1 to combat skill for just 1 point (saving 3 points) and if you lose your weapon you can acquire a new Weapon Bond (and you're still saving 2 points). The fact that Weapon Bond costs like an extra level of skill with a -80% limitation is a moot point - you cannot add limitations to skill levels!
Suggested cost: 2 points

-MAGICAL WEAPON BOND: this is like Weapon Bond, without its drawbacks. Suggested cost: 3 points, or simply buy 1 extra level of skill and stop munchkinizing :)

-ARMOR FAMILIARITY: that's basically +1 to a weapon skill AND a further +1 for parrying purposes (since +2 to attack equals +1 to parry). If you choose that perk, you will ALWAYS benefit from it because you will wear armor and always be encumbered. "Only when armored" is NOT a significant limitation for "+1 to combat skill"... every sane GM will agree on that.
Note that Enhanced Parry costs 5 points, and Armor Familiarity gives you +1 to attacks *in addition* to EP benefits!
Suggested cost: 5 points

- CLINCH: this is not really overpowered but allowing it will dramatically change the way martial artist are designed (making grappling skills far less important)

- EXOTIC WEAPON TRAINING: this is a +1 to combat skill, always. It should simply be removed, or possibly it should cost 3 points. Even then, ALL fighters who use "exotic" weapons will choose it.

- FORM MASTERY: this perk basically allows you to get a +2 to parry when fighting with a Spear. It's like a limited, but more powerful, Enhanced Parry.
Suggested cost: 5 points.

- GRIP MASTERY: this perk basically grant you a +1 to parry (because you can "freely" assume a Defensive Grip and then relinquish it to attack).
Suggested cost: 4 or 5 points.

-SURE FOOTED and NAVAL TRAINING: those perks grant you a "full" +2 to skill (when fighting on specific terrains). If such terrains are quite common (e.g. a naval campaign, or a desert one) then ALL fighters will choose one of those perks. Suggested cost: 1 or 2 points.

-POWER GRAPPLING: it's difficult to evaluate how powerful it is... but it's clearly *extremely* valuable to high-ST characters. Probably it's worth more than 1 point.

-REACH MASTERY: this perk is VERY useful. Long weapons are *significantly* more powerful if you allow it (assuming you are using tactical maps). Suggested cost: 2/3 points.

- SHIELD WALL TRAINING: this perk is SO overpowered... it gives a +2 to combat skill (which is normally worth 8 points) for just 1 point, and has extra benefits!
Without it, no warrior will ever choose a Large shield. If it's allowed, no warrior will ever choose a shield other than a Large one. Suggested cost: 7 points; OR split it into two perks, "Sacrificial Block" for 1 point and "Large Shield training" for 6 points.

- SPECIAL SETUP (and RULES EXEMPTION, EXTRA OPTION and other similar perks): those perks are very easily abusable. They should cost more (2-5 points) and/or be strictly controlled by the GM.

- STRONGBOW: that's +2 to Striking Strenght for a single weapon skill, with the "fake" drawback it requires you to have the weapon skill at DX+2. The drawback is fake because every PC who bothers to buy this, will have a good weapon skill.
Suggested cost: 3 points

-STYLE FAMILIARITY: this perk grants significant benefits; notably a +1 to defenses against co-stylists (every time the enemy tries a deceptive/feint, that is, ALWAYS if he want to have a chance to hit a powerful PC). If the campaign does not feature DOZENS of styles, but just 4 or 5 styles, this perk is even more powerful.
Suggested cost: 2-3 points.

-TEAMWORK: this perk is so convoluted I don't think I would allow it. If I were to do so, I would charge 2 points for it. (note that it basically *includes* Sacrificial Parry and the "Sacrificial Block" portion of Shield Wall Training, only with the fuzzy "form up and then stay adjacent" requirement).

-TRADEMARK MOVE: not really overpowered, but it is particularly useful if you use more than one skill in your "full turn's worth of combat actions". Moreover, most players will try to buy Trademark Move for their most effective, favoured move... in that case, this "+1 to a single move" will look suspiciously similar to "+1 to skill".
Suggested cost: 2 points.

- EFFICIENT: this perk grants +2 to a skill whenever you are in a hurry. In most campaigns, technicians are ALWAYS in a hurry... and +2 to skill would cost 8 points.
Suggested cost: 2/3 points

- OFF-HAND WEAPON TRAINING: this perk makes Ambidexterity useless (unless your character makes a point of using different weapons and skills every time...). Moreover, in real life training to use your off-hand is difficult and time-consuming.
Suggested cost: 2 points

-SPECIAL EXERCISES: in some cases this perk is finely priced. For Damage Resistance, it's BADLY underpriced - because DR is outrageously cheap in low-tech and martial arts campaigns. Thus, if you really want to allow DR at the listed cost, Special Exercises for it should cost more - probably 3 or 4 points.

- PERFUME: this perk needs better explaining. What does "+1 on reaction rolls where a pleasant smell makes a difference" mean? A pleasant smell will ALWAYS be noticed when you talk with someone, so this means that PERFUME grants you +1 to reactions, like Attractive, only for 1 point?
In that case, suggested cost is 3 points.

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Please note that I like Perks and I agree they are a nice way to customize your character.
What I don't like is that some Perks are clearly more powerful than others... and that there is a fuzzy, complex, D&D-esque system to determine how many Perks you can acquire.

Moreover, newer GURPS books feature perks that are more and more overpowered - I am not commenting on GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles because MOST of its perks are badly underpriced (Limited Energy Reserve?).

I think Perks could work just fine in GURPS (and without weird requirements and limits) simply by increasing their costs.

And about Martial Arts styles: some people argue that a limit on how many Perks you can acquire is necessary to differentiate Martial Arts Styles. This is untrue.
If the GM wants to restrict some Perks to certain Martial Artists, he is free to do so - this doesn't change the fact that ALL Perks need to be balanced and fairly priced.

A limited accessibility of a given trait should not cause a discount of that trait's price - if it does, we're playing a "class" system like D&D, not a point system like GURPS.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Lupo

-ARMOR FAMILIARITY: that's basically +1 to a weapon skill AND a further +1 for parrying purposes (since +2 to attack equals +1 to parry). If you choose that perk, you will ALWAYS benefit from it because you will wear armor and always be encumbered. "Only when armored" is NOT a significant limitation for "+1 to combat skill"... every sane GM will agree on that.

You realize that Armor Familiarity is bought by hit location, right? Mrugnak wears two suits of armor. I'd have to spend at least six points to prevent combat penalties, because I'd want to buy off layering over the torso and groin (general dx penalty) and both arms, and both hands. But I'd frankly want no DX penalties in any situation, so that's both legs, both feet, and neck for a total of 11 points.

-SPECIAL EXERCISES: in some cases this perk is finely priced. For Damage Resistance, it's BADLY underpriced - because DR is outrageously cheap in low-tech and martial arts campaigns. Thus, if you really want to allow DR at the listed cost, Special Exercises for it should cost more - probably 3 or 4 points.

Uh. Special Exercises doesn't give you the DR. You have to buy the DR at the listed point cost. It's just an unusual background tax.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Uh. Special Exercises doesn't give you the DR. You have to buy the DR at the listed point cost. It's just an unusual background tax.

Isn't that also the case with the Strongbow Perk, which Lupo also criticizes?

So far, it looks to me as if Lupo is failing to read the rules for the Perks that he accuses of being overpowered, and that's not a good sign...

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Bruno

You realize that Armor Familiarity is bought by hit location, right?

Where did you read that?
I own both Martial Arts and Power Ups 2: Perks and they say nothing of the sort... "For instance, two levels [of Armor Familiarity] mean you have no penalty up to Medium encumbrance, -1 at Heavy, and -2 at Extra-Heavy."

Mrugnak wears two suits of armor. I'd have to spend at least six points to prevent combat penalties, because I'd want to buy off layering over the torso and groin (general dx penalty) and both arms, and both hands. But I'd frankly want no DX penalties in any situation, so that's both legs, both feet, and neck for a total of 11 points.

You are misreading it, Mrugnak would simply spend 1 point for each level of Encumbrance he wants to ignore.
E.g. if he fights at Medium Encumbrance, 2 levels of ARmor Familiarity would cancel the -2 to attacks and parries with Judo or Karate or Fencing (the Perk requires specialization).

That's why the Perk is unbalanced - if you houserule / nerf it, of course it woun't be unbalanced anymore.

Uh. Special Exercises doesn't give you the DR. You have to buy the DR at the listed point cost. It's just an unusual background tax.

I am fully aware of that. I wrote: "Thus, if you really want to allow DR at the listed cost, Special Exercises for it should cost more - probably 3 or 4 points."
Often people assume that every disagreement on GURPS rules comes from ignorance... this is a pity because it impedes discussion.

My point was that this "unusual background tax" is too low; it should be more than 1 point since Damage Resistance is very cheap, very powerful and ordinarily it's off-limits to humans.

In GURPS 3e Toughness costed 10 points and that was about right... so I think that Special Exercises (DR) should cost 3 or 4, ON TOP of Damage Resistance (3 points if it's Tough Skin).

What do you think of the other "underpriced" Perks?
Don't you think that Perks such as Limited Energy Reserve, Shield Wall Training and Grip Mastery are unbalanced?

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

So far, it looks to me as if Lupo is failing to read the rules for the Perks that he accuses of being overpowered, and that's not a good sign...

You are mistaken. I am pretty sure I've read the rules correctly.
Of course some minor mistake is always possible, but - if they exist at all - they are NOT the ones you pointed out so far.

I would ask you to re-read what I wrote and check it with GURPS Martial Arts or GURPS Perks, before commenting on it...

The Strongbow Perk works *exactly* as I have described. It allows you to use stronger Bows (or Crossbows, in case of "Crossbow Finesse" perk). This +2 to Bow ST translates in a net +1 to damage.
That's why EACH and EVERY archer chooses this perk - because with just 1 point you get to increase the damage of your main weapon by 1.

It appears to me that some of the people who think Perks are fairly priced, in reality *do not know* how those Perks are supposed to work.
Therefore they imagine a different, fictional version of them, that fits better in their own vision of GURPS (being less powerful and therefore less unbalanced).
This looks like some sort of cognitive dissonance, like when people cannot possibly believe that somebody they know (or some institution they believe in) is responsible for questionable deeds...

[talonthehand]

Originally Posted by Lupo

-WEAPON BOND: ...The fact that Weapon Bond costs like an extra level of skill with a -80% limitation is a moot point - you cannot add limitations to skill levels!
Suggested cost: 2 points

Actually, you can. While Basic says that it would be a bad idea to regularly put modifiers on skills, it is an option (one which most GM's rightfully disallow).

Basic 102: The GM might even permit specific enhancements on certain skills, but this is difficult to justify unless the skill functions much as an advantage...

Basic 110: You can apply limitations to almost any trait (although as with enhancements, skills are normally off-limits).

Normally being the key word.

[Sam Baughn]

I shan't quote the ones I agree with or can't really offer anything extra to say...

Originally Posted by Lupo

-ARMOR FAMILIARITY: that's basically +1 to a weapon skill AND a further +1 for parrying purposes (since +2 to attack equals +1 to parry). If you choose that perk, you will ALWAYS benefit from it because you will wear armor and always be encumbered. "Only when armored" is NOT a significant limitation for "+1 to combat skill"... every sane GM will agree on that.
Note that Enhanced Parry costs 5 points, and Armor Familiarity gives you +1 to attacks *in addition* to EP benefits!
Suggested cost: 5 points

I'd say 'only when armoured' is a significant limitation to Judo and Karate, since one of the main benefits of unarmed combat skills is that they don't need equipment. Combined with Fencing weapons, it gets a bit more dubious.

Originally Posted by Lupo

- EXOTIC WEAPON TRAINING: this is a +1 to combat skill, always. It should simply be removed, or possibly it should cost 3 points. Even then, ALL fighters who use "exotic" weapons will choose it.

That's only really a problem is exotic weapons are otherwise better than normal weapons. Looking at the trident and the three-part-staff, I'm not convinced that they really are all that great even after you eliminate the skill penalty.

Originally Posted by Lupo

- GRIP MASTERY: this perk basically grant you a +1 to parry (because you can "freely" assume a Defensive Grip and then relinquish it to attack).
Suggested cost: 4 or 5 points.

Assuming you are only facing one opponent, who can't do a 'run around' attack and you aren't using a shield or second weapon. Really, there are rather limited number of builds which get full use out of this one.

-SURE FOOTED and NAVAL TRAINING: those perks grant you a "full" +2 to skill (when fighting on specific terrains). If such terrains are quite common (e.g. a naval campaign, or a desert one) then ALL fighters will choose one of those perks. Suggested cost: 1 or 2 points.

Well, yes. Taking abilities which are only useful in a particular environment is quite good if the campaign is restricted to that environment.

Originally Posted by Lupo

- STRONGBOW: that's +2 to Striking Strenght for a single weapon skill, with the "fake" drawback it requires you to have the weapon skill at DX+2. The drawback is fake because every PC who bothers to buy this, will have a good weapon skill.
Suggested cost: 3 points

I get the impression that it was basically a buff to that skill, because it was considered underpowered. I'm almost suprised that there wasn't something similar for Two-Handed-Axe/Mace.

Originally Posted by Lupo

-STYLE FAMILIARITY: this perk grants significant benefits; notably a +1 to defenses against co-stylists (every time the enemy tries a deceptive/feint, that is, ALWAYS if he want to have a chance to hit a powerful PC). If the campaign does not feature DOZENS of styles, but just 4 or 5 styles, this perk is even more powerful.
Suggested cost: 2-3 points.

It's rather balanced by the fact that they will get the same bonus against you, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Lupo

- PERFUME: this perk needs better explaining. What does "+1 on reaction rolls where a pleasant smell makes a difference" mean? A pleasant smell will ALWAYS be noticed when you talk with someone, so this means that PERFUME grants you +1 to reactions, like Attractive, only for 1 point?
In that case, suggested cost is 3 points.

I don't think this stacks with actually being freshly washed and perfumed. In a situation where you are expected to smell good (i.e. a normal social gathering) it wouldn't give a reaction bonus, but instead cancel a penalty for not having time to bathe and prepare yourself. Basically, it's Sartorial Integrity, but for hygeine and perfume rather than clothing. If it is actually meant to make you smell better than you could manage with equipment and preparation time, then yes, it's basically scent-based Charisma.