Rule queries about order of item effects and FIFO rules

[Collywobbles]

Hi there - this is mainly to sort out a 'debate' we had playing munchkin.

Situation:

Player A has the Bat Bat weapon from Munchkin bites which says that
it automatically kills any bat and then combat continues to resolve. Player A kicks open a door, and there is a bat (for argument sake it's a generic bat).

Scenarios requiring your help:
A) Does the bat die before any player can cast friendship potion / mate / transferral potion / wand of dowsing for one of those cards?
B) Does Player A have to say 'It's dead' to activate the bat?
C) The bat dies immediately but there is 2.6 seconds during which player A could be cursed.
D) The bat dies immediately but there is 2.6 seconds during which another player can cast a wandering monster.
E) Player A was at lvl 8 before combat - during the 2.6 seconds after the bat is automatically killed Player A uses a Go Up a Level card - goes up to lvl 9 and then wins from the bat kill unless someone else uses a drain card.

Is there a general rule for cards with abilities such as this? Say for example, elf fights potted plant kills the potted plant, another player can remove the elf race so the player only gets 1 level? Maru (wont fight werewolves) behind a door for a werewolf - can another player curse the werewolf race away to force the player to fight it?

Is this statement true : In most cases (except for wishing ring cancelling curses), Munchkin uses First In First Out and NOT Magic The Gathering style Interrupts / Sorceries.

I would appreciate definitive answers to this as it caused some heated debate and ideally someone can say : "I've arbitrated rules in lots of games and THESE are your answers ..."

Many many thanks :)

[morleydotes]

Auto Kill. It's gone. Only one card that I know of can screw with it, no two.
Stacked Deck and Annihilation. Stacked Deck would remove the just drawn card and Annihilation would destroy the just played card.

Pat

[MunchkinMan]

Okay, "automatically" means automatically. In other words, it happens and there's nothing you do to activate it, nor is there anything that can be done to prevent it. However, there is still "2.6 seconds" yet for things to be completed. I would not allow someone to play a GUAL in that time if the only Monster faced was a single Bat, but someone could add a Wandering Monster and that would change things around a bit.

If you allow someone to kill a Monster, it's dead. You can't THEN curse them to no longer get an extra Level. If you don't want that Elf getting an extra Level from the Potted Plant, then curse him before you allow him to say he's killed it. If Marv comes up against a Werewolf, do what the cards says before you try to do anything else. However, a non-Werewolf can become one to get rid of him of Marv.

And, yes, Munchkin is a FIFO kind of game; no stack here, which is why things happen like I said above.

[Archduck]

So in that case, Divine Intervention would mean an automatic win for level 9 cleric, and no-one could Duck of Doom to bring the player down a level or two?

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by Archduck

So in that case, Divine Intervention would mean an automatic win for level 9 cleric, and no-one could Duck of Doom to bring the player down a level or two?

Absolutely correct. There's no stack. The rules don't even hint at a stack, so one shouldn't assume stack-based mechanics. Every card game I've played that has a stack makes it pretty darn clear that a stack exists, and games with standard canceling cards usually make it clear how those cards are supposed to work in the rules or on the cards themselves. Munchkin has very few cards that cancel the effects of a card or event, and so those cards specifically say how they work on them, rather than giving over an entire section to such cards in the rules. A good example of a game that has standard canceling cards is SJG's own Chez Geek, which clearly defines in its rules how to use Whenever cards that cancel an action (including using TV cards as Whenever cards).

[ArcadianRefugee]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

I would not allow someone to play a GUAL in that time if the only Monster faced was a single Bat.

Can you elaborate? Mostly your reasoning.

I know there have been times in games I've played in which 1 or more players were at 9th Level and an 8th Level player encountered a monster had the numbers to beat it, and everyone else indicated they had no interest in screwing with him (obviously wishing to save up their goodies to hose the other 9th Level players). The 8th Level player than played a GUAL (going to 9th) and asking "Are you sure?" True, it wasn't an auto-kill situation, but it still left open that "2.6" for people to thwart him (Duck of Doom, Wandering Monster, whatever). I'm just not sure I see the real difference between this scenario and the above "Bat" setting.

My thoughts are that, at least within the current game rules, there isn't anything that indicates one couldn't use a GUAL in either situation. GUALs can be used at any time, and merely have no effect if the level gained would be the "winning level" (since that has to come from a kill). If the combat is as of yet unresolved, the level(s) from a certain victory or an autokill haven't been gained yet, so the player would not yet be 9th Level (which would prevent the GUAL from having an effect).

Sorry this is so wordy, or if I seem grumpy(-ier than usual). I'm trying to avoid writing someone else something unpleasant at the moment.

[RevBob]

Originally Posted by ArcadianRefugee

The 8th Level player than played a GUAL (going to 9th) and asking "Are you sure?" True, it wasn't an auto-kill situation, but it still left open that "2.6" for people to thwart him (Duck of Doom, Wandering Monster, whatever). I'm just not sure I see the real difference between this scenario and the above "Bat" setting.

I think the difference is precisely the auto-kill mechanism. From what Erik just said, the Bat Bat smacks the Bat monster instantly and automatically, before any GUAL can be played. This means that without another monster in the combat to introduce the possibility of defeat, the GUAL isn't taking you from 8 to 9, but from 9 (8, +1 for the Bat) to 10...which is prohibited.

That does open up a loophole, though: Level 8 player with the Bat Bat kicks open the door, finds Gnat Bat, and slaps down three cards in rapid succession: Wom Bat, a GUAL, and Pollymorph Potion on the Wom Bat. Result: autokill for the win - the second monster was there just long enough to pry open a window in which to play the GUAL. Theoretically, the other players could respond to the new situation, but it's still a loophole in the "no GUAL to win with an autokill" timing situation.

Gaaah. I hated arcane timing tricks in Rage, and I still don't particularly care for 'em.

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by RevBob

I think the difference is precisely the auto-kill mechanism. From what Erik just said, the Bat Bat smacks the Bat monster instantly and automatically, before any GUAL can be played. This means that without another monster in the combat to introduce the possibility of defeat, the GUAL isn't taking you from 8 to 9, but from 9 (8, +1 for the Bat) to 10...which is prohibited.

That does open up a loophole, though: Level 8 player with the Bat Bat kicks open the door, finds Gnat Bat, and slaps down three cards in rapid succession: Wom Bat, a GUAL, and Pollymorph Potion on the Wom Bat. Result: autokill for the win - the second monster was there just long enough to pry open a window in which to play the GUAL. Theoretically, the other players could respond to the new situation, but it's still a loophole in the "no GUAL to win with an autokill" timing situation.

Gaaah. I hated arcane timing tricks in Rage, and I still don't particularly care for 'em.

I was going for that line o' thinking, yes. The execution may have not come through, however. I'm exhausted, so I think it might be time to look at this tomorrow and try again. . . :-)

[AbyssalStalker]

Let's take the bat bat and the kicking down a door to a bat example again. If someone plays a wandering monster on you and you have to run away from the wandering monster, do you get the level for the bat that got killed instantly? Do you get the treasure?

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by AbyssalStalker

Let's take the bat bat and the kicking down a door to a bat example again. If someone plays a wandering monster on you and you have to run away from the wandering monster, do you get the level for the bat that got killed instantly? Do you get the treasure?

You never get any rewards from a combat unless you kill, drive off, etc. ALL monsters in the combat.