Renaissance (and other historical Martial Arts)

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by macphersonrants

1. George Silvers style as distinct from that of the Masters of Defense.

They should look pretty similar; probably the same skills even if the real-world execution was slightly different. That might be a lot of work for little gain, unless one of the PCs is a student of Silver's or they encounter a lot of them. Otherwise, I'm not sure it's distinct enough.

Originally Posted by macphersonrants

2. Any of the individual German longsword styles. I think Joachim Meyer would be good. You could also build these into meta styles like the Masters of Defense one with a variety of weapons and techniques.

You could do a whole book of longsword styles, really. We did one, just like we did one kenjutsu style. It's a blanket representation, easily amenable to specific versions being broken out.

Originally Posted by macphersonrants

3. Some of the Elizabethan rapier masters might rate their own separate treatment.

Sure. Again, we represented an entire weapon's style with one style. Different instructors, different methods.

Originally Posted by macphersonrants

4. Perhaps some military styles to represent the average fighting skills of a a landsknecht or a Spanish tercio member.

The generic Longsword style works for a sword-armed landsknecht (specifically well for a doppelsoldner). Shortsword Fighting is a good backup weapon style; so is Dagger Fighting. For sword-and-shield armed tercio, the Sword-and-Shield style was used by the Spanish until the 16th century. The pike and arquebusiers would train differently, but pike doesn't lend itself to much of a style...it'll be a short list like the polearm styles often are.

[macphersonrants]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

They should look pretty similar; probably the same skills even if the real-world execution was slightly different. That might be a lot of work for little gain, unless one of the PCs is a student of Silver's or they encounter a lot of them. Otherwise, I'm not sure it's distinct enough.



You could do a whole book of longsword styles, really. We did one, just like we did one kenjutsu style. It's a blanket representation, easily amenable to specific versions being broken out.



Sure. Again, we represented an entire weapon's style with one style. Different instructors, different methods.



The generic Longsword style works for a sword-armed landsknecht (specifically well for a doppelsoldner). Shortsword Fighting is a good backup weapon style; so is Dagger Fighting. For sword-and-shield armed tercio, the Sword-and-Shield style was used by the Spanish until the 16th century. The pike and arquebusiers would train differently, but pike doesn't lend itself to much of a style...it'll be a short list like the polearm styles often are.

I absolutely agree with your observations.

For me, the thing that would decide whether to right up a new version of one of the more generic Martial Arts 4E styles would be if a given master's style had a number of existing techniques, not part of the existing style, or one or two new ones that don't yet have rules yet.

With Silver what I am looking for is a stand alone Elizabethan backsword style. I'll pick up the Stephen Hand book ( http://www.amazon.com/English-Swords.../dp/1891448277 ) and see whether it is different enough to warrant a write up. I certainly don't want to reinvent the wheel if it's not needed.

As I have said before, I think the Martial Arts book is great and I am really glad that all of the cool WMA stuff made the cut.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by macphersonrants

I absolutely agree with your observations.

Hey, me too!

Originally Posted by macphersonrants

For me, the thing that would decide whether to right up a new version of one of the more generic Martial Arts 4E styles would be if a given master's style had a number of existing techniques, not part of the existing style, or one or two new ones that don't yet have rules yet.

Another one to look for is a subset. We made Longsword Fighting pretty broad. If master A taught technique X and Y, and master B taught technique Y and Z, we generally included all three of them. Many styles were probably less broad. You can make these less-broad styles attractive either by pointing out that breadth of technique isn't important (you can default any of them, so unless you want to buy one...) or by customizing the perk selection or by in-game social ramifications.

Originally Posted by macphersonrants

With Silver what I am looking for is a stand alone Elizabethan backsword style. I'll pick up the Stephen Hand book ( http://www.amazon.com/English-Swords.../dp/1891448277 ) and see whether it is different enough to warrant a write up. I certainly don't want to reinvent the wheel if it's not needed.

A broken-out backsword style is probably pretty useful, assuming people learned it on its own. Or like Chin Na, if it serves as a common touchstone for people using those techniques but whom also learn another style.

Originally Posted by macphersonrants

As I have said before, I think the Martial Arts book is great and I am really glad that all of the cool WMA stuff made the cut.

Thanks!

[macphersonrants]

I've been doing some research and it seems like a post Late Medieval Knightly Combat Style for horsemen is probably warranted.

[Polydamas]

As another chance to play with the Martial Arts rules, I did this write up. Dall'Agocchie is the Bolognese author who comes closest to 17th century Italian rapier, but his text is very clear and is available in translation. One warning: I have only a little experience with Bolognese fencing, and that on the earlier texts in the system.

Bolognese School (Dall'Agocchie) 2 points

Skills: Rapier
Techniques: Counterattack (Rapier), Feint (Rapier), Targeted Attack (Rapier Cut/Skull, or Rapier Cut/Face, or Rapier Cut/Leg, or Rapier Cut/Arm, or or Rapier Thrust/Face, or Rapier Thrust/Vitals)
Optional Skills: Cloak, Main-Gauche, Riding, Lance Sport, Strategy, Expert Skill (Military Affairs)
Perks: Weapon Adaption (Thrusting Broadsword with Rapier skill)

Giovanni Dall'Agocchie was the last master to write in the Italian Bolognese tradition. He published a book on fencing, jousting, and deploying an army in Venice in 1572.

Dall'Agocchie's fencing requires a limber wrist and cautious tactics. Students wait for their opponent to attack or make a mistake, or open combat with a false attack, beat, or attack with opposition. Most defenses are two-time (parry then attack in two seperate motions), but many single-time (parry and attack in one motion) actions are described. Dall'Agocchie prefers thrusts to cuts, but uses both and expects students to be prepared for either. Feints and attacks after a successful parry are most likely to be cuts. Stylists prefer to keep the right side forward, and some guards deny the left side (GURPS Martial Arts: Gladiators p. 21). A set of named guards, steps, and blows are used to plan or describe actions. An important concept is time (tempo in Italian). Every action takes a different amount of time, and unsettles a fencer from his ready position. A skillful fencer can act in less time than his opponents, and use the time of his opponent's actions to strike him.

Rules from Martial Arts to know: Cross Parry, Deceptive Attack, Defensive Attack, Beat, Riposte, Sidestep

Most defenses are Parries (sometimes with a Sidestep and occasionally with a Retreat). A Dodge and Retreat is sometimes used against cuts. With a few exceptions, the cloak and dagger are only used to defend, and the off hand is not used to parry or grapple. With sword and dagger, the two weapons can be used to parry together (a Cross Parry). The cloak can be thrown in an opponent's face while making sure to hold on to one corner (treat as a Feint per the Cloak skill description). What to do against an armoured opponent is not described.

Fashionable swords in Dall'Agocchie's day are classed as Edged Rapiers, Short Edged Rapiers, or Thrusting Broadswords in GURPS. The blunt-edged Basic Set rapier was not popular in Italy.

As a 16th century fencing master, Dall'Agocchie was probably skilled with Spear, Polearm, Buckler, Shield, and Two-Handed Sword as well as unarmed combat. I don't know enough about 16th century Italian fencing to give detailed stats for this training.

[Dangerious P. Cats]

Originally Posted by macphersonrants

I absolutely agree with your observations.

For me, the thing that would decide whether to right up a new version of one of the more generic Martial Arts 4E styles would be if a given master's style had a number of existing techniques, not part of the existing style, or one or two new ones that don't yet have rules yet.

With Silver what I am looking for is a stand alone Elizabethan backsword style. I'll pick up the Stephen Hand book ( http://www.amazon.com/English-Swords.../dp/1891448277 ) and see whether it is different enough to warrant a write up. I certainly don't want to reinvent the wheel if it's not needed.

As I have said before, I think the Martial Arts book is great and I am really glad that all of the cool WMA stuff made the cut.

Having done quite a bit of Silver's single sword I'd certaily say that English Broadsword from the time of Shakespear is destinct enough to deserve a write up separate from the Masters of Defence style in Martial Arts. In part because I think that what masters of defence would have known and taught would have been closer to a series of different styles and it's likly that the people learning from them would have only learnt one or two of those styles. When masters of defence advertised thier services they often advertised what weapons they taught, which did vary.

If it helps you out at all you get Silver's origian work here, there's also this book containing Silver's works and some articles about them. Keep in mind that Silver also included a means defeating rapiers in his work that many modern scholars pay less attention to. Also here's a video of Silver's system in 4.5 minutes (not including the anti-rapier stuff), if that helps.

[SonofJohn]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

The generic Longsword style works for a sword-armed landsknecht (specifically well for a doppelsoldner).

As I recall a Doppelsöldner had to have a diploma from a swordmaster to get the double pay,

There could actually be diffrent styles of polearm fighting, have read somewere that Landsknechte used to fight like the swiss mercenary wielding the pike from above but later changed to wield it from below.