Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

What will promot an inexperienced GM to realize that he needs to think about languages before gamestart?

GURPS Basic Set II, page 505 for starters.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Wikipedia doesn't tell him to. No DF supplment tells him to.

DF isn't played in a vacuum - it pretty much requires the Basic Set (and says as much). The Basic Set has a ton of information on world design.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

You forgot to explain whether or not languages plays as big a role in the campaign as Kromm intended them to. Also, how many of your players created Scholars? How many created characters with Langauge Talent?

Demonsbane briefly wanted to play a scholar lens, but I think he ran out of points.

No one has created a character with Language Talent.

So it hasn't come up. If it had, I'd add some languages and some language related challenges. Since it hasn't, I haven't.

No one has wanted to play a Bard* or Martial Artist, so I haven't created many challenges specific for them, either. I certainly can do so if it comes up.


* Harald has a Diplomat lens, and he has talked his way out of and into a few problems.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Dinofreak2000

i'd like to see the world of Cidri come out, but less banestorm-y...
(geek points for who ever know where Cidri comes from)

i have such fond memories of that place... the scifi Securtiy Station and Thorsz's guards (especially those death tests they used to weed out the weaker guards).

memories...

Most Dungeon Fantasy settings could fit entirely within one of the smaller continents of at least 48 known ones on Cidri; the place was big.

And pretty banestorm-y, too, albeit in a more deliberate sort of way, considering the way the Mnoren had stocked it with creatures and stuff from all kinds of different timelines.

Heck, Yrth itself could easily be placed on Cidri (you'd just have to assume that the planet rotated fast enough for a 24-hour cycle despite the circumference being bigger, which I think may have been the assumption in TFT anyway), and the Banestorm retconned as the Dark Elves activating a left-behind Mnoren device.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

At the very least, Dungeon Fantasy needs a list of the languages within the setting, both living culture languages, special languages (Elemental Language, e.t.c.) and ancient languages. It's the kind of thing that some players will demand to be told about up front before they create their characters, and the kind of thing that an inexperienced GM will be unable to deliver.

I'm thinking the best solution would be a pseudo-European setting with a few major countries analogous to England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy, each with their own language, and a few common ancient languages (analogous to Latin, Greek and Arabic) and half a dozen obscure ancient languages (analogous to Egyptian, Babylonian, Sanskrit and so forth). Largely similar history as Europe, with an old empire that split into two parts, then collapsed due to barbarian invasions.


Likewise, a master list of all Hidden Lore specializations would be good, because it prevents the GM from inventing new ones to thwart the players. The DF1 and 4 PDFs already refer to a lot of specializations in their templats, but a definite statement that these are all that there are unless the GM explicitly says so before game start, would be good. Or if a few more are needed, then include them in the list in the setting PDF.


Basically, there are a bunch of character creation questions that aren't answered in the PDFs published so far, and leaving it up to GM decision is doing a disservice to inexperienced GMs, because either they don't know that they have to make those decisions before gamestart, or else if a player demands it they will not be able to make good decisions that can stand throughout the campaign.

Rather than a supplement, which, as others note, would tend to constrain future DF supplements, why not a Pyramid article? An "official" DF supplement would tend to make future supplements which built off the "generic skeleton lists" less useful to a whole host of us who have our own settings, want to convert favorite old settings/modules, or just want to whip up a quick game (and really, those templates are perfect for a "pick-up" game).

As a Pyramid article, it could be a set of simple lists of languages, Hidden Lore specializations, etc., and perhaps a couple of small (5 paragraph or so) sample settings using the material from the DF series. Or instead, perhaps a tool for generating the DF skeleton for your players which includes suggestions for lists of languages, skill specializations, etc.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

A GURPS:DF By Example adventure may not be a bad idea.

Somethign Like Tower of Octavius with an adventure built in and for DF.

As noted above, A town, a couple of Holes with monsters and treasure in them and a basic beastiary/encounter table to go with it.

Although converting other sources to gurps isnt hard in itself, I can see why a new GM might want something more like a turn key solution for his first attempts at reffing the game.

It should Include:
Near Town Map: Major Lanmarks Include

1. Town
2. Adventure Area 1
3. Adventure Area 2

Town Map:Major landmarks include

1. Location and Interior Map of Mayor/Duke/King (Quest Giver's) house/Mansion/Castle.
2. Location and Interior Map of Armory/Outfitters.
3. Location and Interior map of Tavern/Inn where the charachters will likely sleep.
4. Location and Interior Maps of the Guards Barracks.
5. Location and Interior Maps of a Temple/Mageria/Yerberia for Healing

Maps for the Adventure Areas.

Printable Sheets with the Stats for the Monsters in the Encounter Areas and Stats for Major NPCs(King, Captain of the Guard, Head Clerk at Outfitters etc).

Encounter Tables for Each of the Adventure Areas. For begining players and GMs 'I walk into a hole kill creatures and make their possesions my own' is plenty to handle, but you could throw a rudimentry plot in there as well.

The town map and data is infinitely reusable and could become a Base oF Ops for the carachters for many adventures as could either one of the adventure areas once the monsters are relocated to the afterlife.

This would also help the new GM see what kind of preparation is required to make a game run smoothly, and he could then begin generating his own by expanding the map of the town and its surroundings to encompass a country or continent. Throw in a few competing races and cities and before you know it, you've got a running world.


There may be alot of this stuff on e23 right now and I just dont see it. Although Caravan To Ein Aris is a good adventure, the meatier parts of it involves a level of inrtigue than most DFers arent really looking for. Nail Down 12-20 pages of PDF that contain a foothold into Dungeon Fantasy that is ready to play right out of the box.

It may be that because GURPS GMs love to microtweak thier worlds to death there hasn't been a market for this kind of 'starter module.' As we continue to pick up players from other systems, I think showing them a well written example of an adventure might make the transition for them easier.

For the Record, I love extending this idea to GURPS:(Insert Genre Here) By Example.

Nymdok

The 0one stuff on e23 is excellent for this. Don't want to map something out? Here you go. And it's CHEAP (a lot of mileage for $2). I grabbed some of 'em and have used them in my DF game with great success.

Some of it has good tools for determining what you, as GM, wants in each room (legend at the end with blank lines for filling info in). Perhaps some supplement that suggests maps? I don't know how licensing would work, though...

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Most Dungeon Fantasy settings could fit entirely within one of the smaller continents of at least 48 known ones on Cidri; the place was big.

And pretty banestorm-y, too, albeit in a more deliberate sort of way, considering the way the Mnoren had stocked it with creatures and stuff from all kinds of different timelines.

Heck, Yrth itself could easily be placed on Cidri (you'd just have to assume that the planet rotated fast enough for a 24-hour cycle despite the circumference being bigger, which I think may have been the assumption in TFT anyway), and the Banestorm retconned as the Dark Elves activating a left-behind Mnoren device.

Cidri was very artificial. I'd actually have light and heat sources that orbited it, rather than vice versa.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Cidri was very artificial. I'd actually have light and heat sources that orbited it, rather than vice versa.

It was never really clear just how much was artificial, and how much of that was construction or terraforming. The thing about 48 continents up to a certain size, and a slightly more than 1:1 ocean to land ratio, only forces a conclusion of about 6 times Earth's surface area, and therefore something like 2.5 times the dimensions. That's almost 15 times the mass, if it has the same density as Earth (probably not a valid assumption), for that same 2.5 times surface gravity - so it would have to be made much less dense, whether naturally (which might imply metal ores being rarer) or through advanced technology ranging from honeycomb structure or antigrav.

[Greg 1]

I would not like to see DF tied to any particular setting.

I would be interested in a setting built to support DF.

D&D has had tons of such settings. They weren't necessary. A lot of folks never used them. Other folks got good use from them.

Plenty of dungeoneers in years gone by wandered all over the land, visiting cities and having adventures in fictional kingdoms and empires. Mostly we just made our own settings up - which is fine, just as it is in any game. Sharing common worlds with people can be fun too.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

How come the player can't point out that oversight of mine to me without resorting to violence?

Aye. Games are for friends to have fun with. Once we can't be gentle with each other, we should go home.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Why not revive all those less popular fantasy settings like Mystara, Birthright, Greyhawk, Darksun, Kalamar etc... ? Why make another new setting when there is so much oldies which can be recycled and it is much easier to keep the DF line Generic and Universal?

As long as the setting is optional, I don't think it should infect the rest of the DF line.

I think you are absolutely right that DF can be set in settings that people already like. The advantage of a new dedicated setting is that it can be made to fit the DF line of races and classes.